[MLL67RSSS]

Been helping move Chevrolet vehicles to the Indianapolis Motor Speedway these last few days, the loaded up Suburbans sticker for around $74,000 so we may be getting there! They are a lot nicer now interior wise.

[evh5150vanhalen]

Originally Posted by 96MrBass

I don't understand how some people would not take these list into consideration when spending 40/50 or 60k on a vehicle.

Because not every single car has problems or is perfect.

We had 2 Cobt SS's
2006 2.4 developed a shimmy in the front passenger side, stopped at a GM dealer.. They looked over the car and said it was fine "must be a tire out of balance"
By the time we got to the next dealer the car was almost uncontrolable.
They took us right in, while in the waiting room the service manager and tech came and got us..
They told is we were lucky to make it and said this is your problem..
He then proceeded to haul the wheel, hub, brake and axle off the car with a simple pull..
2006 2.0L supercharged
Steering column needed to be replaced
CV shaft let go
Couldn't keep tires on it, they always wore oddly.

My father traded his 2.4ss in on a 2008 Chrysler 300C
It now has 70,000 miles and it's had zero and i mean ZERO issues.

I traded my 2.0ss in on my Challenger
The only thing that I've replaced on it is the power steering pump.

Mothers 2003 Neon..
Alternator and E brake cable

Grandmothers 2004 caravan has had quite a few issues.

Best friends 2012 Covic SI
Tierods
Paint
Electrical faults
Rust
Burns more oil than gas
It's at honda more than it's home.

Thats why people don't really follow these lists.
They go by personal experience and from what they see happens to their froends and familys cars..
No vehicle is made perfectly.

[DGthe3]

I've noticed that brands with very strong followings are seemingly always at the bottom. Mini, Jeep, and VW stand out. As members of an enthusiast forum, we should all be well aware of the fact that the ones who care the most can be the most nitpicky because they want their cars to be perfect. They still love their car and won't hesitate for a second to buy a new one once the next generation once it comes out. And then they will mention all of its flaws and so the cycle continues. However, someone who simply doesn't care will let quite a few things slide (or not even notice them as being problematic).

I'm not saying that this is the governing factor behind everything on the list, but I'm sure that it skews things a bit. It makes it a little easier for brands that sell cars mostly to people who aren't passionate about their product to get a good score while making it almost impossible for enthusiast brands to score well.

[MEDISIN]

Originally Posted by evh5150vanhalen

Because not every single car has problems or is perfect.

No, but when hundreds of thousands of cars are followed over time and the number of problems are tabulated and compared, some makes and models consistently require more service visits than others.

Originally Posted by evh5150vanhalen

Thats why people don't really follow these lists.
They go by personal experience and from what they see happens to their froends and familys cars..
No vehicle is made perfectly.

On the contrary. Reliability is the third most important factor shoppers consider when buying a car.

Quality
Cost of ownership
Reliability

If I tell the average person a Buick is more dependable than a Toyota they'll probably think I'm nuts. Perception is a lagging indicator which is why companies like Toyota maintain plenty of brand loyalty - their cars are reliable. Over the last decade though, all GM brands have grown tremendously in reliability to the point where they aren't far off Toyota. Trouble is people still "perceive" Toyota, Honda, etc of making the most reliable cars. Likewise people still "perceive" GM as making the cars their parents owned in the 80's.

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by oklapike

Something I found kind of interesting...GM is the only domestic company with multiple makes on the top ten most reliable list (and GMC is tied with Chevy to boot). Not even Toyota can boast that this time around.

1 Lexus
3 Toyota
9 Scion

Actually they can.

[CamaroSpike23]

Originally Posted by MEDISIN

No, but when hundreds of thousands of cars are followed over time and the number of problems are tabulated and compared, some makes and models consistently require more service visits than others.



On the contrary. Reliability is the third most important factor shoppers consider when buying a car.

Quality
Cost of ownership
Perceived Reliability

If I tell the average person a Buick is more dependable than a Toyota they'll probably think I'm nuts. Perception is a lagging indicator which is why companies like Toyota maintain plenty of brand loyalty - their cars are reliable. Over the last decade though, all GM brands have grown tremendously in reliability to the point where they aren't far off Toyota. Trouble is people still "perceive" Toyota, Honda, etc of making the most reliable cars. Likewise people still "perceive" GM as making the cars their parents owned in the 80's.

fixed that for ya

[oklapike]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

1 Lexus
3 Toyota
9 Scion

Actually they can.

Yeah, I guess I could have worded that better. I meant Toyota couldn't boast the most brands on the list, GM has four because of Chevy and GMC being tied for 10th.

[ChrisBlair]

Originally Posted by Black Market Racing

MY. GOD. Fiat has always been terrible but somehow people still buy them!

"every new car they sell has three defects that require attention! That figure is also almost double the industry average."

Fixed it for ya

Remember what they always said about FIAT?

Fix
It
Again
Tony

I've owned some stinkers made by Ford and GM but goodness gracious, the very name 'Fiat' conjures up images of sorrowful looking guys pushing cute little cars down a lonely road, towards a gas station in the middle of the night.

I take everything JD Power reports with an enormous grain of salt but Fiat's inclusion is no surprise to me.

[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by oklapike

Yeah, I guess I could have worded that better. I meant Toyota couldn't boast the most brands on the list, GM has four because of Chevy and GMC being tied for 10th.

But aside Chrysler-Fiat, nobody else even has more than 3 brands on JD Power's dependability list. That makes it kinda hard for the companies with only 1 or 2 brands to be able to lay claim to having the 'most brands in the top 10'

If you want to compare on a corporate level, you could take the average of their brands scores (relatively simple). Or, if you wanted a fairly accurate picture you could look up what each brand sold from August 2011 through July 2012 (approximately the 2012 model year that JD power is looking at) and use that data to do a volume-weighted average. Multiply the brands reliability by its sales volume then add up all of a companies brands & divide by companies total volume. That should give a pretty clear picture as to which company has the most reliable cars & trucks. It won't be perfect, but its a lot more meaningful than counting how many brands it has in the top 10. If you did all that, GM would probably be 4th behind Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes-Benz but ahead of 9(?) other companies.

[96MrBass]

Originally Posted by evh5150vanhalen

Because not every single car has problems or is perfect.

We had 2 Cobt SS's
2006 2.4 developed a shimmy in the front passenger side, stopped at a GM dealer.. They looked over the car and said it was fine "must be a tire out of balance"
By the time we got to the next dealer the car was almost uncontrolable.
They took us right in, while in the waiting room the service manager and tech came and got us..
They told is we were lucky to make it and said this is your problem..
He then proceeded to haul the wheel, hub, brake and axle off the car with a simple pull..
2006 2.0L supercharged
Steering column needed to be replaced
CV shaft let go
Couldn't keep tires on it, they always wore oddly.

My father traded his 2.4ss in on a 2008 Chrysler 300C
It now has 70,000 miles and it's had zero and i mean ZERO issues.

I traded my 2.0ss in on my Challenger
The only thing that I've replaced on it is the power steering pump.

Mothers 2003 Neon..
Alternator and E brake cable

Grandmothers 2004 caravan has had quite a few issues.

Best friends 2012 Covic SI
Tierods
Paint
Electrical faults
Rust
Burns more oil than gas
It's at honda more than it's home.

Thats why people don't really follow these lists.
They go by personal experience and from what they see happens to their froends and familys cars..
No vehicle is made perfectly.

Exactly and that's how the list is formed and year after year if a manufacturer continues to get the same reviews I would have to think about buying that brand.

[5thGenOwner]

Originally Posted by oklapike

Yeah, I guess I could have worded that better. I meant Toyota couldn't boast the most brands on the list, GM has four because of Chevy and GMC being tied for 10th.

I get it now.

The list does look like a who's who of GM and Toyota, with a Porche here and a Honda there.

I'm personally not into lists, but I own a GM and Toyota and have to agree with it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by DGthe3

But aside Chrysler-Fiat, nobody else even has more than 3 brands on JD Power's dependability list. That makes it kinda hard for the companies with only 1 or 2 brands to be able to lay claim to having the 'most brands in the top 10'

If you want to compare on a corporate level, you could take the average of their brands scores (relatively simple). Or, if you wanted a fairly accurate picture you could look up what each brand sold from August 2011 through July 2012 (approximately the 2012 model year that JD power is looking at) and use that data to do a volume-weighted average. Multiply the brands reliability by its sales volume then add up all of a companies brands & divide by companies total volume. That should give a pretty clear picture as to which company has the most reliable cars & trucks. It won't be perfect, but its a lot more meaningful than counting how many brands it has in the top 10. If you did all that, GM would probably be 4th behind Toyota, Honda, and Mercedes-Benz but ahead of 9(?) other companies.

I agree that your weighting scheme would paint a much clearer picture. Still, the contrast between GM and Fiat (who have so many brands) on these list is striking. Polar opposites

[trashmanssd]

Originally Posted by 5thGenOwner

I get it now.

The list does look like a who's who of GM and Toyota, with a Porche here and a Honda there.

I'm personally not into lists, but I own a GM and Toyota and have to agree with it.

Hey I guess I am a smart buyer,
Wife has driven (1) Pontiac (1)Lexus and (2)Toyota, I have owned (1) GMC (2) Chevy's (1) Toyota and (1) Porsche.

only real problem car was Chevy Avalanche tranny and rearend both nuked at 110-120K but I tow a boat a lot and I think it was mistake getting an SUV based vehicle to tow with.

[enzia35]

Tons of recalls by GM, one of the most reliable. Much much much less by Ford, least reliable.