[Craig]

GT500 @ MSRP will be what the bone stock 11-second GT is now. Legends will be born. Songs will be written. Even the forsaken poor with their stock Ecoboosts will beat their chests in glory as if they had built the GT500 with their own two hands.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What should matter more to the consumer isn't sales but whether or not you can buy the car. And if you can buy the car then do you have the opportunity to attain that car. Ok so let's say the ZL1 needs heavy discounts to move it. The fact remains that you can walk to the dealership and drive one home for a great price that, according to newmoon, is tens of thousands f dollars below MSRP...so like $25K gets you a brand new fully loaded ZL1. On the other hand Ford put the GT500 far out of reach of their customers. And those who can afford it, a lot of them, have chosen to go a different route because they can't see spending that much for a Mustang. Basically you're not touching a GT500 for less than $90K Base and about $110K CF. And that is if you don't add anything onto the car. A few addons and the Base will be $100K with the CF hitting $125K. All for a car that hopes to beat a $71K Redeye and a $64K ZL1. I mentioned the Redeye before and how they're all $90K when optioned. However I can still go get one without extra options at MSRP and pay $71K. And dealerships are discounting them. I've seen some drop from $88K to about $76K in the past few months. You're not getting any GT500 of any version with any options or without any options for less than $90K-$95K. Unless it's a story of some guy that some Mustang person heard about who managed to get one at MSRP...but more than likely they gave him $10K less on a trade or somehow got him to give up an extra $10K somehow somewhere. LOL!

So what I'm saying is that for a consumer the only thing that matters is your chances of getting the car. And all I see are Mustang guys who have no chance of getting a GT500 but bragging about how awesome it might be. It's like bragging about the hot cheerleader that you're never gonna bang, lol!! And I'll mention that you can say what you want about how terrible you think the ZL1 is, the fact remains that everyone who has bought one and came over here from M6G has raved about how much better the ZL1 is over the GT350. The GT500 will be no less since most of them won't even be able to get one.

And speaking of Mustangs behind velvet ropes, I went to a local Ford dealership a few years ago and they had a GT350 non-R behind a rope. My little brother wanted to take a look at it and the salesman told us we could not walk past the rope. They wouldn't even let anyone sit in the car. There was a sign saying not to pass the rope and to see a salesman, lol!! I looked at the original sticker and saw a $10,000 market adjustment assessment price. I laughed at them and we walked out of there. Less than a year later I got my ZL1 for less than what they were trying to sell that GT350 for. And remember that was a non-R. Even without the adjustment it was over $60K OTD. What a joke.

Amen to everything you have said BlaqWhole, agree agree agreee

[Craig]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What should matter more to the consumer isn't sales but whether or not you can buy the car.

To actual customers this is the ONLY thing that matters. The damn thing could msrp for $1 for all I care if there isn’t one for sale to me. I have plenty of money to spend but not with dealers who make me feel like I’m trying to join a country club and I’m sure as hell not bidding against the embroidered jacket brigade who take the cars out of a ziplock bag twice a year for car shows and introduce themselves by build number.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

What should matter more to the consumer isn't sales but whether or not you can buy the car. And if you can buy the car then do you have the opportunity to attain that car. Ok so let's say the ZL1 needs heavy discounts to move it. The fact remains that you can walk to the dealership and drive one home for a great price that, according to newmoon, is tens of thousands f dollars below MSRP...so like $25K gets you a brand new fully loaded ZL1. On the other hand Ford put the GT500 far out of reach of their customers. And those who can afford it, a lot of them, have chosen to go a different route because they can't see spending that much for a Mustang. Basically you're not touching a GT500 for less than $90K Base and about $110K CF. And that is if you don't add anything onto the car. A few addons and the Base will be $100K with the CF hitting $125K. All for a car that hopes to beat a $71K Redeye and a $64K ZL1. I mentioned the Redeye before and how they're all $90K when optioned. However I can still go get one without extra options at MSRP and pay $71K. And dealerships are discounting them. I've seen some drop from $88K to about $76K in the past few months. You're not getting any GT500 of any version with any options or without any options for less than $90K-$95K. Unless it's a story of some guy that some Mustang person heard about who managed to get one at MSRP...but more than likely they gave him $10K less on a trade or somehow got him to give up an extra $10K somehow somewhere. LOL!

So what I'm saying is that for a consumer the only thing that matters is your chances of getting the car. And all I see are Mustang guys who have no chance of getting a GT500 but bragging about how awesome it might be. It's like bragging about the hot cheerleader that you're never gonna bang, lol!! And I'll mention that you can say what you want about how terrible you think the ZL1 is, the fact remains that everyone who has bought one and came over here from M6G has raved about how much better the ZL1 is over the GT350. The GT500 will be no less since most of them won't even be able to get one.

And speaking of Mustangs behind velvet ropes, I went to a local Ford dealership a few years ago and they had a GT350 non-R behind a rope. My little brother wanted to take a look at it and the salesman told us we could not walk past the rope. They wouldn't even let anyone sit in the car. There was a sign saying not to pass the rope and to see a salesman, lol!! I looked at the original sticker and saw a $10,000 market adjustment assessment price. I laughed at them and we walked out of there. Less than a year later I got my ZL1 for less than what they were trying to sell that GT350 for. And remember that was a non-R. Even without the adjustment it was over $60K OTD. What a joke.

This. Actual informed consumers don't care about sales figures of a certain car, only non consumer fanboys. Uninformed consumers may care about sales in terms of what they see on the road the most or what they think is the coolest based on what their peers think, instead of best value, reliability, and performance. Ofcourse personal preference weighs heavily also.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The fact that they claimed it was tested to X MPH but then they had to cut it to 180 MPH and threw out a "oh well where are you going to drive that fast anyway" statement tells me that it isn't up to snuff. Why would they even make that statement? To me it means they are hiding something. And that something is that it cannot handle safely at those speeds. The fact that the Hellcat has terrible handling characteristics yet it can safely go 204 MPH says a lot. And even the 490 HP Base C8 can safely handle 194 HP. The Z71 even does 184. So what really is the deal with the GT500? I think the GT500 is just not balanced or designed as well as the ZL1 is. And I think we'll see that if they put both cars on a technical track.

I still don't get the hang op on the top speed thing but that's just me. A little insight for whatever it's worth on the GT500 top speed though. Some of the guys on the other site did a little digging and figured that the theoretical top speed of the GT500 is only around 190ish due to the 3.73 gearing and the gearing the 7 speed DCT. I wonder if they capped it at 180 because it more or less hits a wall at those speeds due to the gearing.

Originally Posted by hotlap

Ford discounts, and fleet sells, the hell out of the Mustang. It’s volume is a direct relationship. Then they severely restrict availability of the Shelby models to drive up demand leading to unattainable cost for guys like him.

Meanwhile at Chevy, they build enough to fully satisfy demand. That means regular people can own them. That’s special.

Chevy may have built to many ZL1s based on the amount of discounts dealers are throwing on them lol. Local dealer is knocking between 5500 and 6800 off the window sticker

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’ve posted this for you before. Note the part about the short 2017 ZL1 model year ...only four months long. Also, GT350s can now be found discounted below MSRP

In 2018 Ford produced 4,378 GT350’s. Chevy produced 6,164 ZL1’s
In 2018 Ford produced 633 GT350R. Chevy produced 1,567 ZLE

Chevy delivered the first 2017 ZL1 eight months into the 2017 model year (April 15, 2017). That’s 3,048 in four months.

In 2016 Ford delivered 3,814 overheating GT350’s without coolers

In one year of production (2018), Chevy produced more ZL1 1LE’s (1,567) than Ford produced GT350R in 2015, 2016 and 2017 combined (1,469).

There definitely was more ZL-1s but it wasn't that huge of a difference that I would say Ford is limiting the supply...if anything it's the stupid ass allocation system they use that IMO is more of a problem. Any idea on the break down of how many ZL-1 were convertibles? That's another + for GM is that they offer it in a drop top as well.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I still don't get the hang op on the top speed thing but that's just me. A little insight for whatever it's worth on the GT500 top speed though. Some of the guys on the other site did a little digging and figured that the theoretical top speed of the GT500 is only around 190ish due to the 3.73 gearing and the gearing the 7 speed DCT. I wonder if they capped it at 180 because it more or less hits a wall at those speeds due to the gearing.

If the GT500 is gear or drag limited at 190 then that's fine. The problem is it limited to 180. Which makes me think it is too unstable to go faster than that. For me that's the hang up. I would much rather my car be drag limited or gear limited than be limited due to being unstable. Whether that speed is 70 or 180 for me that hang up would be the same.

Something else I have always wondered is this: Why dont Mustangs have a sunroof? I dont like convertibles but I do like the sunroof or targa top.

[NW-99SS]

A wee bit off topic, but thought this was as good of place as any to share...

Got to drive a ZLE for the first time on Friday (owner has a ZLE and a C7 ZR1 A8). A few things I noted:

The car is not too rough - we don't have great highways, but I didn't find it rough, it was very stiff, and very responsive, the 305 fronts to tramline...but I expect that from this car. Hell, my 275 factory equipped 4th gen tramlines on grooved road surfaces. The owner actually wants the suspension firmed up even further - and this is for street use primarily.

The ZR1 is unreal. Just silly speed and walks away with ease. Fantastic car. ZTK equipped so both are big wing cars.

Last, I realized after all my research and forum reading that driving these machines is the only way to really make honest comments about them. I will apply that to the GT500 as well...without experiencing it, judgement can't truly be given even based on your own preferences.

Anyway, though I would share, was incredible to enjoy two big wing GMs on the same night (didn't get to drive the ZR1 - but maybe next year).

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

If the GT500 is gear or drag limited at 190 then that's fine. The problem is it limited to 180. Which makes me think it is too unstable to go faster than that. For me that's the hang up. I would much rather my car be drag limited or gear limited than be limited due to being unstable. Whether that speed is 70 or 180 for me that hang up would be the same.

Something else I have always wondered is this: Why dont Mustangs have a sunroof? I dont like convertibles but I do like the sunroof or targa top.

I think if it is gear limited to 190 I think that it might be a dead crawl from 180 on so they just capped it at 180. Like it might eventually get to 190 but you'd need a a runway like in Furious 6 to get there lol. Or its not stable I have no clue, just relaying info from the other side.


Why don't mustangs have sun roofs, I have no idea, that is a good question since every other Ford has one.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I think if it is gear limited to 190 I think that it might be a dead crawl from 180 on so they just capped it at 180. Like it might eventually get to 190 but you'd need a a runway like in Furious 6 to get there lol. Or its not stable I have no clue, just relaying info from the other side.


Why don't mustangs have sun roofs, I have no idea, that is a good question since every other Ford has one.

Even if this is the case, that it takes forever to get from 180 - 190...what's the point of limiting it? There must be a valid reason other than a slow acceleration rate.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by NW-99SS

Even if this is the case, that it takes forever to get from 180 - 190...what's the point of limiting it? There must be a valid reason other than a slow acceleration rate.

That's true ^

Only reason I can think of is either its unstable like many here suggest or it just would take so much distance to hit it they just decided cap it where it hits said wall.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

That's true ^

Only reason I can think of is either its unstable like many here suggest or it just would take so much distance to hit it they just decided cap it where it hits said wall.

Don't give me that because I'm not buying it. That is just an excuse. My Hellcat has 3.70 gears, M6 trans, and weighs like 4300 pounds and it does not take a long time to go from 180-190. And that is with 707 HP and a suspension that is worse than my 5th gen Camaro had. The 6th Gen M6 ZL1 has a 3.73 final drive ratio and it likewise is not capped. Neither of those cars takes a long time to push to 190 MPH. The 2012 ZL1 with 580 HP and M6 trans has a 3.73 FDR and it goes 184 MPH. LOL!! The GT500 has no logical reason.

[crysalis_01]

Do we know if GT500 is using TR-9070A or TR-9070B?

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

If the GT500 is gear or drag limited at 190 then that's fine. The problem is it limited to 180. Which makes me think it is too unstable to go faster than that. For me that's the hang up. I would much rather my car be drag limited or gear limited than be limited due to being unstable. Whether that speed is 70 or 180 for me that hang up would be the same.

It does seem weird that the flagship Mustang was speed-limited so much when compared to the ZL1, or the Hellcat. With the big hp number that they are claiming for it, speed should have been right up it's alley. The fact that they limited it this much does make it seem like Ford found a problem in development and then they came up with an excuse to explain the low limit.

[lt4camaro]

Originally Posted by crysalis_01

Do we know if GT500 is using TR-9070A or TR-9070B?

Looks like A with the 3.14 first gear ratio.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-9070.pdf