[DorkMissile]

As per my previous post - the oil capacity is 10qts, not necessarily the fact that you are getting 10 quarts out every time when you change it, resulting with people running the oil levels high.

I rebuilt my engine over the winter to put in forged internals - 100% bone dry engine when I began assembly.

I used 1qt of oil during assembly, and before dropping the engine in the car, I prelubed the oil system thru the oil plug on the side of the block, filling it with exactly 2 more quarts in the process. Once in the car, I poured in 6 more quarts and measured on the dipstick, with just a fair hint of oil on the very tip of the stick.

I poured in the 10th quart, and it went exactly half way up the hash marks BEFORE I started the engine.

First pic is before starting (all components should be full of oil except for the feed tube from the bottom of the pan to the oil pump - half way up the hash marks)

Second pic is after the engine ran up to temp for 5 minutes, then was shut off and cooled for 2 hours. Once settled, the level was only about 1/3rd the way up the hash marks, with exactly 10quarts of fluid in it.

If your level is higher, you are over filling the engine.

[Pro-2A]

Both of those images represent sufficient amount of oil. I personally would't add another drop.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

I've always been a fill it to the upper level of the hashing on the dipstick when filling oil. I start with the recommended amount and then add small amounts until at the proper level...

This is pretty much exactly my approach, except I typically add maybe a 1/4 quart less than the manufacturer's recommended amount, then start then engine to ensure the oil filter is completely full, then add oil to get towards the top of the hashmarks.

Mine is similar to others in this thread. Exactly 10 quarts puts the oil level in the center of the dipstick hashmarks (maybe 2/3 the way up). I typically add up to 1/2 qt more to get it closer to the top of the hash marks, but make sure to not have it above the upper limit.

The owners manual recommends checking the oil after the engine has been off for two hours if possible OR at minimum have the engine off for 15 min if warm or 30 min if it's not warm. The cross-hatched area likely represents one full quart, since it says if the level is at all below the cross-hatch marks, to add 1 quart, then recheck the level. In addition to this, the track supplement says to "Check the oil level and keep it at or near the upper mark that shows the proper operating range on the engine oil dipstick" and to do this "before, during, and after" track events or competitive driving. Regarding using 10 quarts exactly, the owners manual also states "All capacities are approximate. When adding, be sure to fill to the approximate level, as recommended in this manual. Recheck fluid level after filling."

[2SS Capt]

I'm going to go to very close to the top of the harsh marks... The entire harsh mark rage is "acceptable", a little more oil is better cooling and better dilution of the oil of any contaminants... Anywhere in the harsh mark range is "acceptable", I;m going to the high end...

You've got to remember, the manual is NOT written for the guy that just rebuilt his engine and it is completely empty... It is written for the average owner that is doing a drain, filter change and refill... There is a fair bit of difference...

[DorkMissile]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

You've got to remember, the manual is NOT written for the guy that just rebuilt his engine and it is completely empty... It is written for the average owner that is doing a drain, filter change and refill... There is a fair bit of difference...

My pictures and comments are relating to conversation earlier in the thread. The issue is that people are trying to force 10qts in after their oil changes, but the system capacity is only 10qts. There is no way to get all 10qts out when doing a change. So they drain out 9, pour in 10, and call it a day. My point was to show what 10qts looked like in a bone dry engine.

The issue with these engines is that they are known for having large amounts of oil digestion issues. We are talking about puddles of oil in the intake.

The problem with that is, being these are direct injected engines, there is no fuel being delivered prior to the valves. When you combine really hot valves to oil vapor, you end up with large amounts of deposits on the valves. Its like layer upon layer of burnt on molasses on the stems of the valves. And there is no fuel being sprayed on the valves to cool them and wash them. You can search on the forums here and find plenty of bad images of really gummed up intakes, heads and valves.

The problem with running the oil to the top of the hash marks is that given there is no extra room in the engine for the oil, it ends getting churned up by the crank and rods, which creates massive amounts of oil vapor that the PCV system cannot deal with. The other thing is that this churning effect turns the oil into a well emulsified mixture of oil and air being pumped thru the engine, which can create major issues with things like the DOD system and bearings (air can't support things like the crank when under pressure between the journals & bearings)

I myself run my oil down under the hash marks. When doing so, the amount of oil I was seeing in my catch can went down 95%

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by DorkMissile

My pictures and comments are relating to conversation earlier in the thread. The issue is that people are trying to force 10qts in after their oil changes, but the system capacity is only 10qts. There is no way to get all 10qts out when doing a change. So they drain out 9, pour in 10, and call it a day. My point was to show what 10qts looked like in a bone dry engine.

The issue with these engines is that they are known for having large amounts of oil digestion issues. We are talking about puddles of oil in the intake.

The problem with that is, being these are direct injected engines, there is no fuel being delivered prior to the valves. When you combine really hot valves to oil vapor, you end up with large amounts of deposits on the valves. Its like layer upon layer of burnt on molasses on the stems of the valves. And there is no fuel being sprayed on the valves to cool them and wash them. You can search on the forums here and find plenty of bad images of really gummed up intakes, heads and valves.

The problem with running the oil to the top of the hash marks is that given there is no extra room in the engine for the oil, it ends getting churned up by the crank and rods, which creates massive amounts of oil vapor that the PCV system cannot deal with. The other thing is that this churning effect turns the oil into a well emulsified mixture of oil and air being pumped thru the engine, which can create major issues with things like the DOD system and bearings (air can't support things like the crank when under pressure between the journals & bearings)

I myself run my oil down under the hash marks. When doing so, the amount of oil I was seeing in my catch can went down 95%

You have me curious now with your feedback on low oil level (below hashmark) showing favorable trends in catch can trapped oil. That's an interesting datapoint that I don't think I've heard of yet. In fact, I've never heard of people intentionally filling to below the hashmarks or OEMs recommending that, especially for engines in performance applications.

I do have some questions:

• You mentioned these engines have large amounts of oil digestion issues. I understand what you're talking about, but is there actual evidence of performance degradation due to this? I'm not looking to argue, I'm genuinely interested if there's performance degradation that's associated with this.
• Why would GM specify to fill the oil to the top of the hashmark, particularly for performance driving, if this is harmful? That just doesn't make sense to me. It would be cheaper for them to factory fill 1 quart less and also pay for 1 less quart for the 2 free oil changes.

[DorkMissile]

Originally Posted by vtirocz

• You mentioned these engines have large amounts of oil digestion issues. I understand what you're talking about, but is there actual evidence of performance degradation due to this? I'm not looking to argue, I'm genuinely interested if there's performance degradation that's associated with this.
• Why would GM specify to fill the oil to the top of the hashmark, particularly for performance driving, if this is harmful? That just doesn't make sense to me. It would be cheaper for them to factory fill 1 quart less and also pay for 1 less quart for the 2 free oil changes.

All I can do it break it down how I see it:

Q1 - The two things that concern me about the oil digestion issue is (1 to a lower extent) how bad these engines build up layers of burnt oil on the valve stems and (2) Detonation issues relating to oil vapor. Oil vapor can cause pre-ignition / detonation which this engine has problems with already (ring lands)

Q2 - The engine development process happens YEARS in advance of that of the chassis that the engine will go into, so they don't see all issues until both come together. At that point, it is too late to do anything internal to the engine, so out come the band aids. The factory PCV system went thru three revisions in the Corvette, and really was never solved. Want proof? Look at how much effort that GM has put into the PCV system on the LT2 to address these issues. They specifically say that they added a separate direct feed oil pump to force lubrication to the top end / cam vs letting it drain back due to oil draining onto the crankshaft.

My best friend works at GM at the Prooving Grounds - he specifically told me when I was buying my Camaro the small little catch can box on the intake was the thing that got the oil consumption under control enough for it to pass emission testing. It did noting for the owner once it was full, but it took a few thousand miles to fill up.

I have had several want to take on this debate, and that is ok with me, but I have yet to head anyone tell me what will happen if you ran the oil 1/2 to 1qt low.

Ive done it, under more boost that you are supposed to run on a LT1, on E85, with Meth Injection, on a stock bottom end while making more power that you are supposed to and took the engine apart and inspected everything myself. All bearings and cylinder walls looked perfect considering I ran it under the hash marks the entire time.

[DorkMissile]

As a point of reference, I drove my car 150 miles today to break in the bearings & rings after the rebuild, so I wanted to change the oil to get the assembly lube / break in oil out.

Drained the pan for a hour (went in and ate dinner. Spun off the filter, spun on a new one, then put the plug back in.

I then cut open the filter to check for contaminates and let the oil drain into the pan with the oil that came out of the engine, which was an additional 1/2qt

So even with the oil out of the filter, which you will not get unless you cut it open, I only ended up with a little over 9qts that came out.

I put 9qts new in, fired it up, and it fell right back to 1/3rd the way up the hash marks - maintaining the 10qt capacity of the system

Picture is of two jugs, 4.5qts in each that I poured out of my drain pan.

[2SS Capt]

I did my 500 mile oil change yesterday, I got well over 9.5 qts out of my engine (it was right at the top of the hash marks before the oil change), this included dumping the filter in the same drain pan...

It took 9.75 qts to put me back to the top of the hash marks...

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

I did my 500 mile oil change yesterday, I got well over 9.5 qts out of my engine (it was right at the top of the hash marks before the oil change), this included dumping the filter in the same drain pan...

It took 9.75 qts to put me back to the top of the hash marks...

That's interesting. 9.75qt would put me towards the bottom end of the dipstick hash marks (after soaking for 2+ hours). 10.5qt is needed to bring it to the top of the hash marks, which matches up with what some others were reporting.

[DorkMissile]

If you want to find some interesting info - look up the newest episode of engine masters. Watch the entire episode - a lot of information about windage (what I think this engine suffers from A LOT) and oil level

The problems with too much oil are way more severe than not enough

[Need4Camaro]

I have my car on Race Ramps so my car is at an angle and there is probably alot of oil that didn't come out.. ..My driveway is also on an incline so that also doesn't help. Today I changed my oil and my dipstick reads as full at only 5 Quarts.. ..I'm alittle nervous about adding more, but don't want to be too shy either.

[easttxss]

Originally Posted by Need4Camaro

I have my car on Race Ramps so my car is at an angle and there is probably alot of oil that didn't come out.. ..My driveway is also on an incline so that also doesn't help. Today I changed my oil and my dipstick reads as full at only 5 Quarts.. ..I'm alittle nervous about adding more, but don't want to be too shy either.

Car needs to be on a level surface when checking the oil. 5qts is NOT enough oil.

[lt4camaro]

I do all my own oil changes, I bring the level 1/2 up into the crosshatch area leaving it about 1/2 quart low.