[s346k]

to the average person a camaro does nothing well. its not rocket science. even if they ran down to a dealership after seeing an ad, they would quickly be running to other makers after a test drive.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

As long as they aren't cartelling (which is no different than now) it up with other car companies, prices would be as fluid as they are now.

You just would not be haggling to not get ripped off.

The idea that you have to argue and fight your way to a sale price that doesn't include significant mark ups is not good for buyers.

Any way you slice it, dealers are unnecessary middle men in new car purchases that do nothing but create extra cost for the consumer.... The only difference from one to the next is how much.

They don't offer anything at efficiently low prices before or after the sale, so anything that changes because you get rid of the laws requiring new sales thru them can easily exist at the same or better prices and service.

They haven't made themselves necessary by exploiting their buying power... They use that to exploit customers. The laws that prop them up are disgusting anti American crap.

Step back and think about the entire car ownership experience, though. Buying the car takes a few hours, maybe a few days. You own it for YEARS.

Repairs, upgrades, maintenance... Where do you get all of that done in a manner that everything is tracked appropriately so that the manufacturer can off you a warranty? Yes, dealerships have heavy markups on the cars, but there's a certain amount of "necessary evil" in having dealerships that plays into all of the days, months, and years AFTER the sale that matter.

If you want to take the dealership out of the equation and look at how repairs and maintenance would work, you would have a huge network of traveling techs that would each need to be fully outfitted with tools, a truck, access to parts, etc... How much do you think THAT would cost for the manufacturers to maintain? Even if they outsource it, it's expensive. Recovering those costs would likely mean little, if any, difference in the cost of the car up front. Yet, there would be no ability to see lots of them in one place to comare sizes, colors, options, etc. So, same price, less convenient. Is that better?

All I'm really saying is that there is a LOT more to it than just the markup for selling the car itself. Where does that profit, ultimately, go? How much of it is consumed by operating expenses of the dealership?

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Keep in mind...abolishing the laws that force dealers to be how you buy a new car doesn't mean you have to buy direct from factory. It means the factory is open to selling the car any way that makes the most sense for them.

They could have a mix of factory outlets, retail stores or sell to existing retail stores (both dealers and actual places like Costco, etc), online sales and whatever new comes.

The same way and freedom manufacturers have to get their goods to buyers that nearly every other good is sold.

Uh huh, and who pays the salaries of the people that work at these new factory outlets or retail stores? The manufacturer? They would be taking on many costs that are now the responsibility of the dealerships. GM doesn't pay me, my dealer does. Why would Costco be interested in becoming a retailer for autos if they're not going to make money doing it? You think Costco doesn't make money on everything they sell in their stores?

I'm telling you, no one would save money if the manufacturer did it this way. Their cost of business would skyrocket due to the people needed to help them move their cars.

I always see this brought up but it's normally by someone that really hasn't done ALL of the homework on what would be required to make it happen.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by s346k

to the average person a camaro does nothing well. its not rocket science. even if they ran down to a dealership after seeing an ad, they would quickly be running to other makers after a test drive.

Unfortunately this is correct. It's a very narrow-focus automobile, even within its own category. I still like them and still want one, but I would have to make it a second car instead of a replacement for my Impala, it's just too much of a compromise as a daily driver. I could make a Mustang or Challenger (especially the Dodge) work. I do NOT understand why GM made the Camaro essentially a Corvette with a nearly unusable back seat.

[delthawk5]

Most dealerships around me have literally 0 Camaro inventory. The one dealership I did find with Inventory had a couple of V6 2020s and a single 2019 2SS. I bought the 2SS for way below invoice. Sounds like the Camaro was first on the GM chopping block when COVID came around.

[AZCamaroFan]

all production stopped, so there was no 'first on the chopping block'. As the Camaro is a smaller seller than the trucks and suv's there were fewer of them on the lots to begin with.

[delthawk5]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

all production stopped, so there was no 'first on the chopping block'. As the Camaro is a smaller seller than the trucks and suv's there were fewer of them on the lots to begin with.

I highly doubt production went straight to zero overnight, they probably began ramping down months ago when suppliers started running into issues with any tertiary components/resources sourced from China like rubber, displays, and other electronics. By your own words the camaro is a niche low-volume product and that's the first thing that stops being made when you're starting to lose revenue.

[AZCamaroFan]

you're entitled to doubt anything you want. the world keeps moving on in reality.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by delthawk5

I highly doubt production went straight to zero overnight, they probably began ramping down months ago when suppliers started running into issues with any tertiary components/resources sourced from China like rubber, displays, and other electronics. By your own words the camaro is a niche low-volume product and that's the first thing that stops being made when you're starting to lose revenue.

All GM production halted for covid on March 18th. They shut all offices and factories down in North America on that date.

Prior to March 18th they were running at normal full scale operation.

[cellsafemode]

Originally Posted by GearheadSS

Uh huh, and who pays the salaries of the people that work at these new factory outlets or retail stores? The manufacturer? They would be taking on many costs that are now the responsibility of the dealerships. GM doesn't pay me, my dealer does. Why would Costco be interested in becoming a retailer for autos if they're not going to make money doing it? You think Costco doesn't make money on everything they sell in their stores?

I'm telling you, no one would save money if the manufacturer did it this way. Their cost of business would skyrocket due to the people needed to help them move their cars.

I always see this brought up but it's normally by someone that really hasn't done ALL of the homework on what would be required to make it happen.

1. Dealers wouldn't need laws to keep manufacturers from selling other ways if their role was the best way for manufacturers to sell or for customers to buy.

2. Cosco already sells cars as much as they can within the law.

3. Manufacturers want to control the image of their brand. This gets muddied by dealers who want to make their own brand to differentiate themselves from other dealers. I believe one of the many ways removing the law to have to use dealerships only would result in franchises that are more fully controlled by manufacturers and act... Like McDonald's.... Every dealership would basically be the same... Their prices carefully controlled by the manufacturer. Their look and names and employee training, all centrally controlled so the experience is the same if you go into a dealership in PA for a given make, as in California.


I'm not saying dealerships wouldn't exist. They just wouldn't be without competition and consumers would have choice in how they buy their vehicles and the experience would improve because for the most part, the egomaniacal dealership of today that tries to differentiate themselves even though they're the same as every other dealership will go extinct. Replaced by people who run the franchise as a partner of the OEM if not a direct employee. I think a lot of the bad dealership experience comes from top to bottom in owners who need to see their name everywhere. That and no real incentive to do better since their business model is legally required

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

I agree GM has done a horrible job marketing the Camaro.

You know, some of Camaro’s highest selling years coincided with what may be some of the best advertising GM ever did. “The Heartbeat of America” slogan with a Z28 burning rubber and flying down a curvy road had people ready to run down to their Chevy dealer if they saw the commercial at 2:00 in the morning!! Now half of America probably doesn’t even know the Camaro came back into production in 2010!!!

Ummmm half of America doesn't know GM makes cars. This is not a Camaro problem.

By the way what year you refer but I believe that is what we call coincidence.

Back in the day GM had 2, yes TWO plants make F-body cars. Demand for Camaro and Firebird was so great the had a plant in California and a plant in Ohio.

The last time the Camaro sold over 100,000 units was 25 years ago.

And if we believed the "GM doesn't market the Camaro" fan club, you would also be able to go back to 1999, 1998 and 2000 and see GM didn't market the Camaro and it died. And that was 20 years ago.

I'll say it again (and will probably have to again), GM designed and engineered the greatest Camaro ever and they did it for a very focused customer, the existing Gen5 Camaro customer, who when asked simply screamed MOHRRRRRRRR. And GM listened. So what you claim is if GM simply advertised (they actually do market the car) they would sell more. But this is the exact equivalent of saying that if you had the best Left Handed base ball gloves you could sell them to Right Handers if you were just smart enough to advertise.

They made a very exacting and precise machine with a very specific purpose for a very specific customer. They did not make a multi-purpose, fits everyone sport coupe. And in the end, even if they had a car that did fit more needs, coupes are dying. And if you look at the post for sales over the years, it's pretty clear.

[s346k]

i would like to see available vehicles from chevrolet in say...1980, 2000 and now. how many and what they were. i feel like there are a lot more vehicles available now than there used to be. never know until one actually does the research.

[GearheadSS]

Originally Posted by delthawk5

I highly doubt production went straight to zero overnight, they probably began ramping down months ago when suppliers started running into issues with any tertiary components/resources sourced from China like rubber, displays, and other electronics. By your own words the camaro is a niche low-volume product and that's the first thing that stops being made when you're starting to lose revenue.

You're wrong though. Production did go to zero when the shutdown happened due to Covid 19.

[ember1205]

Originally Posted by s346k

i would like to see available vehicles from chevrolet in say...1980, 2000 and now. how many and what they were. i feel like there are a lot more vehicles available now than there used to be. never know until one actually does the research.

Here you go... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...#North_America

There's more available from 1980 than you likely remember.