[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Bullitt is a paint job and 15 extra hp for premium $$$...Marketing has no limits...

JFC, this is either ignorance or failure to do even a modicum of research, both reflect extremely poorly. The Bullitt is essentially 1) the aforementioned HP bump, 2) unique grill + wheels and 3) a GT Premium with Performance and modified Electronics package. If you spec'd a similarly equipped GT you'd save $1k but lose 1 & 2. So you're saying 15 hp and a unique exterior isn't worth $605 (metallic paints are a $395 option)?? That's enough internet for me today!

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by USAFS197

That's really unfortunate. Of course I'm happy that our cars still benchmark very well against the competition but, I do not want the competition to falter in such a way. The more they push us, the better product we all get. Ultimately, I love Mustangs just as much if not more than I do Camaro's and I want them both to succeed.

I’m pretty much the same, except for the “if not more” part. I’d take a GT350 in a second (not doing the ADM thing though). I think they are a driver’s race with a 1LE and to be honest, I like the looks of the GT350 over the 1LE. I’d still take an SS over a GT 8 days a week. Mainly because of the areas where Ford continues to pull up short. Camaro handling is, in my opinion, that much better. Plus the extra confidence that comes from the added coolers.

I am a little disappointed in Ford for flat out proclaiming that PP2 is not meant to be a track car. Especially after all the talk about the skunk works / after hours dedicated team that developed the PP2. I am even more disappointed that they but Cup 2 tires on a car that they tell you you shouldn’t track. On one hand, I’m betting that the Cup 2s will be killer on the drag strip, but from a buyer’s pov, replacing those things every few months...... $$$$$$ I imagine first replacement set for most buyers will be something different. I have over 15K on my Eagle F1s, including a couple track days and a dozen dragstrip runs at Milan a few weeks ago. I’ll probably finish my second summer on the tires it was delivered with. And I do not baby this car.

***EDIT***I misspoke when I said “..tires it was delivered with.” I forgot that both front tires have been replaced under Tire & Wheel Warranty. But the rears are as delivered.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Diff overheating on the PP2 is just plain ridiculous. A diff cooler would cost Ford less than $100 to include on the car. They deserve the hammering they’re going to get.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

JFC, this is either ignorance or failure to do even a modicum of research, both reflect extremely poorly. The Bullitt is essentially 1) the aforementioned HP bump, 2) unique grill + wheels and 3) a GT Premium with Performance and modified Electronics package. If you spec'd a similarly equipped GT you'd save $1k but lose 1 & 2. So you're saying 15 hp and a unique exterior isn't worth $605 (metallic paints are a $395 option)?? That's enough internet for me today!

I know, the horror of fake news, eh? lol.
When i spec out a GT to the proverbial titties (incl goodies like metallic paint and Megna ride etc on top of Premium pack) i am still about 5 big ones below a Bullitt.
Thats based on my modicum of research. But we do live in different countries and pricing may vary...
For example up here a plain GT350 starts about 3G higher than a ZL1. And thats no fake news.

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

I know, the horror of fake news, eh? lol.
When i spec out a GT to the proverbial titties (incl goodies like metallic paint and Megna ride etc on top of Premium pack) i am still about 5 big ones below a Bullitt.
Thats based on my modicum of research. But we do live in different countries and pricing may vary...
For example up here a plain GT350 starts about 3G higher than a ZL1. And thats no fake news.

Bullitt: $46,595

GT Premium: $40,350 + 401A (12" cluster, mycolor, etc.) $2,200 + PP1 $3,995 + Active Exhaust $895 = $47,440


I was wrong, the Bullitt is cheaper than if you built a similarly-spec'd GT. And you get the additional power and the appearance package to boot. Its fine to clown on Ford for the PP2 being performance disappointment, but no need to just make up things to further a narrative...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Good grief. None of this makes any sense. Ford took some suspension components from the GT350, which is a dedicated track car, added track specific tires that are not good on the street at all, then doesn't put in any coolers for the track, and when the car overheats on the track, the reviewers say, well it's more of a street car anyway. I'm calling BS!!!!

The PP2 was promoted as a skunk works project to go up against the 1LE (a track package car).

The real story here is that the Ford nut jobs have bullied the crap out of anyone who says anything negative about the car. MotorTrend got HAMMERED by the Ford faithful for saying such good things about the 6th Gen Camaro. They called them Chevy Trend. It has been soooo bad that the next MotorTrend H2H video had the guys joking about did they get their check from Chevy yet. AND, in the follow-up to that video when they tested the PP1 to the 1LE, MotorTrend went WAY out of their way to make the Mustang look good, like testing things with "Cowboy Science". WTF is cowboy science you ask? It's just another way of saying "we better find something, ANYTHING, that the Mustang is better at than the Camaro, so we don't get so hammered by the Mustang fans like last time." Let's tell the viewers the Mustang does burnouts better. Really? Did they have trouble getting the SS to do a burnout or something? Or, the Mustang exhaust sounds way better. Really, they both sound great to me. You may prefer one over the other, but WAY better? Come on. Or, let's take it out to a dry lake bed so we can have enough room for the Mustang to eventually go faster... At the end of the first half of the video, they said, well if these were the only tests the Mustang would win. WHEN would those be the only tests in any comprehensive review of the performance of the cars?? What about 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad, figure-8, track times? It's totally clear they were cherry picking some data points that they felt they could claim as a victory for the Mustang just to get the crazy nut jobs off their backs.

Anyone who has been watching these H2H's for a while could see through this crap. They were just trying not to hurt the Mustang fan's feelings.

Now R&T and Ford are trying to claim that the PP2 wasn't meant for going to the track, even though it comes with tires that are terrible on the street but great on the track, just to get a lap time that is closer to the 1LE (a track package car).

If the PP2 is a a street package, why the track tires? If the PP2 is a street package, why does it even exist at all? Would't it be better to make the base car a softer ride, and the PP1 a bit stiffer for folks who want to canyon carve? Why have a PP2 at all? Also, why is the PP2 manual only? What, you can't canyon carve in with an auto transmission? Are automatic cars terrible on the street or something?

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, IT'S A FREAKING DUCK!

As I said first. NONE of this narrative makes sense.

The narrative that DOES makes sense is, the PP2 was meant to be the answer to the 1LE, a track package car that keeps embarrassing the Mustang on the track, but Ford didn't want the engineers spending too much money on R&D, so they used existing parts from the GT350 and track specific tires to get a certain lap time. The engineers didn't have money to spend developing coolers necessary for the track, or other fun track toys like the Performance Data Recorder, or different levels of performance traction management, let alone a torque vectoring eDiff.

I know what a duck is, and the PP2 was developed to get a track time in the same ballpark as the 1LE. And it probably will get a great track time, but it seems it can only do that for a lap or two, which is useless. And now, magazines are bending over backwards to misrepresent the intent of the package so they don't hurt all the bullies feelings...

And before anyone tries to reply with the whole "well it was designed for the street, if you want to track it, you should modify it to put the coolers on", let me just say, then why did they choose these tires for a street package? What, a guy who can put a bunch of coolers in the car can't change the tires to a track tire too? Nonsense.

[TrackClub]

Yep and i did err on the HP front, the Bullitt is indeed 20hp vs 15 over a GT. But frankly 5hp accounts for me taking a number 2 vs not - before i track a car

But more importantly, both manufacturers seem to be sandbagging the ratings, as the GT dynoed closer to 480 at a crank and Camaro LT1 usually dynoes even higher. Thats as compared to a Vette LT1 scoring 460 at a crank on a same dyno.

And of course, lest we forget there are torque ratings to consider.

There is no question in my mind GM could have safely changed the offical power numbers to 480/480 and give cars and coffee bragging rights back to bow tie folks.
But that would have taken wind out of reworked LT1 sails coming with even more power, likely in 2020.

Having said that this is still fake news just like soon to be introduced C8.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Diff overheating on the PP2 is just plain ridiculous. A diff cooler would cost Ford less than $100 to include on the car. They deserve the hammering they’re going to get.

Agreed. It would not shock me one bit if they start adding coolers in MY 20

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Good grief. None of this makes any sense. Ford took some suspension components from the GT350, which is a dedicated track car, added track specific tires that are not good on the street at all, then doesn't put in any coolers for the track, and when the car overheats on the track, the reviewers say, well it's more of a street car anyway. I'm calling BS!!!!

The PP2 was promoted as a skunk works project to go up against the 1LE (a track package car).

The real story here is that the Ford nut jobs have bullied the crap out of anyone who says anything negative about the car. MotorTrend got HAMMERED by the Ford faithful for saying such good things about the 6th Gen Camaro. They called them Chevy Trend. It has been soooo bad that the next MotorTrend H2H video had the guys joking about did they get their check from Chevy yet. AND, in the follow-up to that video when they tested the PP1 to the 1LE, MotorTrend went WAY out of their way to make the Mustang look good, like testing things with "Cowboy Science". WTF is cowboy science you ask? It's just another way of saying "we better find something, ANYTHING, that the Mustang is better at than the Camaro, so we don't get so hammered by the Mustang fans like last time." Let's tell the viewers the Mustang does burnouts better. Really? Did they have trouble getting the SS to do a burnout or something? Or, the Mustang exhaust sounds way better. Really, they both sound great to me. You may prefer one over the other, but WAY better? Come on. Or, let's take it out to a dry lake bed so we can have enough room for the Mustang to eventually go faster... At the end of the first half of the video, they said, well if these were the only tests the Mustang would win. WHEN would those be the only tests in any comprehensive review of the performance of the cars?? What about 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad, figure-8, track times? It's totally clear they were cherry picking some data points that they felt they could claim as a victory for the Mustang just to get the crazy nut jobs off their backs.

Anyone who has been watching these H2H's for a while could see through this crap. They were just trying not to hurt the Mustang fan's feelings.

Now R&T and Ford are trying to claim that the PP2 wasn't meant for going to the track, even though it comes with tires that are terrible on the street but great on the track, just to get a lap time that is closer to the 1LE (a track package car).

If the PP2 is a a street package, why the track tires? If the PP2 is a street package, why does it even exist at all? Would't it be better to make the base car a softer ride, and the PP1 a bit stiffer for folks who want to canyon carve? Why have a PP2 at all? Also, why is the PP2 manual only? What, you can't canyon carve in with an auto transmission? Are automatic cars terrible on the street or something?

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, IT'S A FREAKING DUCK!

As I said first. NONE of this narrative makes sense.

The narrative that DOES makes sense is, the PP2 was meant to be the answer to the 1LE, a track package car that keeps embarrassing the Mustang on the track, but Ford didn't want the engineers spending too much money on R&D, so they used existing parts from the GT350 and track specific tires to get a certain lap time. The engineers didn't have money to spend developing coolers necessary for the track, or other fun track toys like the Performance Data Recorder, or different levels of performance traction management, let alone a torque vectoring eDiff.

I know what a duck is, and the PP2 was developed to get a track time in the same ballpark as the 1LE. And it probably will get a great track time, but it seems it can only do that for a lap or two, which is useless. And now, magazines are bending over backwards to misrepresent the intent of the package so they don't hurt all the bullies feelings...

And before anyone tries to reply with the whole "well it was designed for the street, if you want to track it, you should modify it to put the coolers on", let me just say, then why did they choose these tires for a street package? What, a guy who can put a bunch of coolers in the car can't change the tires to a track tire too? Nonsense.

What he said ^ That is disappointing. A few people called it here that it would happen and they were right.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

Diff overheating on the PP2 is just plain ridiculous. A diff cooler would cost Ford less than $100 to include on the car. They deserve the hammering they’re going to get.

I agree, but as many in this forum pointed out it was bound to happen after what took place with the non Track Package GT350s. Maybe Ford's thinking was this PP2 was going to be too close for comfort to the 16-18 non R GT350. Either way for that small amount of money it is ridiculous that it isn't included.

Instead of the PP2 they should have offered a drag package for the A10 model, most likely would have sold many many more.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Bullitt: $46,595

GT Premium: $40,350 + 401A (12" cluster, mycolor, etc.) $2,200 + PP1 $3,995 + Active Exhaust $895 = $47,440


I was wrong, the Bullitt is cheaper than if you built a similarly-spec'd GT. And you get the additional power and the appearance package to boot. Its fine to clown on Ford for the PP2 being performance disappointment, but no need to just make up things to further a narrative...

No worries: i was wrong too:
GT Premium plus all your options verbatim: $48,414
Bullitt: $57,525
Both prices MSRP in CAD before freight tax etc.

Seems different pricing strategies are in play here, meaning the Bullitt is priced on par, while GT is cheaper (accounting for FX).

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I agree, but as many in this forum pointed out it was bound to happen after what took place with the non Track Package GT350s. Maybe Ford's thinking was this PP2 was going to be too close for comfort to the 16-18 non R GT350. Either way for that small amount of money it is ridiculous that it isn't included. Instead of the PP2 they should have offered a drag package for the A10 model, most likely would have sold many many more.

Perhaps I am too optimistic, but I really thought the PP2 would be able to do HPDE's like the Camaros. But you hit the nail on the head. Dodge had no trouble figuring out the Challenger was never going to be a road course car. Not that it can't do it or it wouldn't be fun. But it's not their strength. Straight line is. So they developed the Demon. Home run!

If Ford wasn't ready to do what was necessary to be able to at least do some HPDE's, figure out your car's strength, and go with that instead. A drag pack would be awesome and a great example of going with the Mustang's strength.

Another example of Ford messing up their strengths is the recent reliability issues with the motor and two transmissions. If I bought a 2018, I would be VERY hesitant to modify it yet. Because if you mod, and the motor goes, Ford may deny your warranty claim. To me, modding a Mustang is one of their best strengths. Mustang guys LOVE to modify their mustangs, and historically, they have handled mods very well. And there are so much aftermarket support. I sure hope that Ford identifies the issues, and fixes them right away, so the Mustang guys don't have to worry about modding. All newly developed stuff can have some issues, let's just hope the issues don't linger longer than necessary.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Perhaps I am too optimistic, but I really thought the PP2 would be able to do HPDE's like the Camaros. But you hit the nail on the head. Dodge had no trouble figuring out the Challenger was never going to be a road course car. Not that it can't do it or it wouldn't be fun. But it's not their strength. Straight line is. So they developed the Demon. Home run!

If Ford wasn't ready to do what was necessary to be able to at least do some HPDE's, figure out your car's strength, and go with that instead. A drag pack would be awesome and a great example of going with the Mustang's strength.

Another example of Ford messing up their strengths is the recent reliability issues with the motor and two transmissions. If I bought a 2018, I would be VERY hesitant to modify it yet. Because if you mod, and the motor goes, Ford may deny your warranty claim. To me, modding a Mustang is one of their best strengths. Mustang guys LOVE to modify their mustangs, and historically, they have handled mods very well. And there are so much aftermarket support. I sure hope that Ford identifies the issues, and fixes them right away, so the Mustang guys don't have to worry about modding. All newly developed stuff can have some issues, let's just hope the issues don't linger longer than necessary.

I didn't think the PP2 would overheat like this and sure as hell didn't think a magazine would get it to do it. Disappointing effort from the Blue Oval

Efforts must be doubled!

[Lafourche1]

If I can alter the general base conversation to take it to the GT350R versus the ZL1 H2H, you will find a similar shading. The ZL1 beat the GT350R in every single performance category (0-60 / quarter-mile / figure 8 / track lap times, etc.). Let's not forget that you can actually use a ZL1 as a daily driver in real comfort, too. The GT350R was picked as the better car because of an exhaust sound (it did win the subjective exhaust sound test) and the general driving feel, even though it was stated that the ZL1 could be driven daily. Good luck with driving the GT350R in South Louisiana in the summer months. Good way to have a heat stroke.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Good grief. None of this makes any sense. Ford took some suspension components from the GT350, which is a dedicated track car, added track specific tires that are not good on the street at all, then doesn't put in any coolers for the track, and when the car overheats on the track, the reviewers say, well it's more of a street car anyway. I'm calling BS!!!!

The PP2 was promoted as a skunk works project to go up against the 1LE (a track package car).

The real story here is that the Ford nut jobs have bullied the crap out of anyone who says anything negative about the car. MotorTrend got HAMMERED by the Ford faithful for saying such good things about the 6th Gen Camaro. They called them Chevy Trend. It has been soooo bad that the next MotorTrend H2H video had the guys joking about did they get their check from Chevy yet. AND, in the follow-up to that video when they tested the PP1 to the 1LE, MotorTrend went WAY out of their way to make the Mustang look good, like testing things with "Cowboy Science". WTF is cowboy science you ask? It's just another way of saying "we better find something, ANYTHING, that the Mustang is better at than the Camaro, so we don't get so hammered by the Mustang fans like last time." Let's tell the viewers the Mustang does burnouts better. Really? Did they have trouble getting the SS to do a burnout or something? Or, the Mustang exhaust sounds way better. Really, they both sound great to me. You may prefer one over the other, but WAY better? Come on. Or, let's take it out to a dry lake bed so we can have enough room for the Mustang to eventually go faster... At the end of the first half of the video, they said, well if these were the only tests the Mustang would win. WHEN would those be the only tests in any comprehensive review of the performance of the cars?? What about 0-60, 1/4 mile, skid pad, figure-8, track times? It's totally clear they were cherry picking some data points that they felt they could claim as a victory for the Mustang just to get the crazy nut jobs off their backs.

Anyone who has been watching these H2H's for a while could see through this crap. They were just trying not to hurt the Mustang fan's feelings.

Now R&T and Ford are trying to claim that the PP2 wasn't meant for going to the track, even though it comes with tires that are terrible on the street but great on the track, just to get a lap time that is closer to the 1LE (a track package car).

If the PP2 is a a street package, why the track tires? If the PP2 is a street package, why does it even exist at all? Would't it be better to make the base car a softer ride, and the PP1 a bit stiffer for folks who want to canyon carve? Why have a PP2 at all? Also, why is the PP2 manual only? What, you can't canyon carve in with an auto transmission? Are automatic cars terrible on the street or something?

If it looks like a duck, flies like a duck, swims like a duck, quacks like a duck, IT'S A FREAKING DUCK!

As I said first. NONE of this narrative makes sense.

The narrative that DOES makes sense is, the PP2 was meant to be the answer to the 1LE, a track package car that keeps embarrassing the Mustang on the track, but Ford didn't want the engineers spending too much money on R&D, so they used existing parts from the GT350 and track specific tires to get a certain lap time. The engineers didn't have money to spend developing coolers necessary for the track, or other fun track toys like the Performance Data Recorder, or different levels of performance traction management, let alone a torque vectoring eDiff.

I know what a duck is, and the PP2 was developed to get a track time in the same ballpark as the 1LE. And it probably will get a great track time, but it seems it can only do that for a lap or two, which is useless. And now, magazines are bending over backwards to misrepresent the intent of the package so they don't hurt all the bullies feelings...

And before anyone tries to reply with the whole "well it was designed for the street, if you want to track it, you should modify it to put the coolers on", let me just say, then why did they choose these tires for a street package? What, a guy who can put a bunch of coolers in the car can't change the tires to a track tire too? Nonsense.

You are quite easily triggered.