[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

You could be spot on. I think it is more reflective of what it costs to make the S550 as fast as the Alpha.

Its an inferior chassis, and thus takes a lot more money and R&D to get it to catch up.

Even the geometry of the S550 doesn't look like a car that was built for handling. It looks more like the emphasis was on straight line speed.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think we all agree that it is a fast car. It's just that for the money and for what you get in options and features, it is not fast enough. It is not fast for what you are expected to pay.

Now here's the other thing. Is it possible that GM pushed the ZL1 and ZLE to the edge of the performance line for this price range? I mean, perhaps for these Pony Cars, the ZL1/ZLE is soo far advanced in performance that squeezing even more performance comes with a substantial increase in price. I mean, maybe Ford simply just could not match the handling of those cars and HAD to throw that 760 HP at it so they could make up for it in power. Maybe Ford HAD to put that price tag on it based on what they put into R&D and everything they threw at it. Maybe they realized all this and that is why it took that extra year just to get close to the ZL1/ZLE.

The GT500 CFTP is fast around a track for the price, it's just that the ZLE is exceptionally fast around a track for the price. Aside from the ZLE, nothing in the same price range as a GT500 CFTP comes remotely close to it around a track except the C7 Z06, which obviously isn't made anymore.

The cars adjacent to the GT500 CFTP at Lightning lap:

Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 2:44.0
Dodge Viper ACR (2016): 2:44.2
GT500 CFTP: 2:44.6
2015 Corvette Z06: 2:44.6 (M7)
Lamborghini Huracan Evo: 2:45.0
ZLE: 2.45.0
Ferrari 488 GTB: 2:45.1

Heck, the McLaren 650S Spider ran a 2:45.8.

Aside from the Z06 and the ZLE, the cars that ran similar times to the GT500 CFTP cost much, much more than it.

Look at some more expensive cars below it, for comparison as well:

BMW M8 Comp: 2:55.5 (nearly twice the price and severely underrated at 617 hp - they dyno over 610 whp)
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: 2:55.2 (more than twice the price)
Jaguar F type R ($104k base): 2:59.5 (the F type R performance is a joke for the money - it's 0.2 seconds slower than a '21 Supra 3.0)

If it weren't for the ZL1/ZLE/C8/C7 Z06, etc., the GT500 CFTP would be a performance bargain if you compare its times to the cars around it at LL.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Very good points.

Also don't forget that the ZL1/ZLE had the advantage of sharing the platform with the CTS/ATS and engines with the Corvette. That's a huge chunk of development costs spread out across several models which probably let them put more into the specifics of chassis tuning and suspension and stuff like that. The GT500 on the other hand everything was just for Mustang. It had nothing to share those costs with. DCT just for the GT500, Predator 5.2 just for the GT500, etc etc. That is a situation where the "parts bin car" has a serious advantage.

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ford sells more Mustangs than GM sells (or sold) Camaro+CTS+ATS.

Cadillac wasn't pushing a lot of ATS/CTS sales the last half decade.

That likely negates the advantages of spreading the Alpha chassis out amongst several vehicle models. But maybe it helps by spreading the development costs to different companies.

The GT500 CFTP is expensive (speaking msrp) because it has 760 hp, DCT, Carbon fiber wheels, CF drive shaft, CF wing, etc.

The GT500 is more expensive than the ZL1 because it has 760 hp, DCT, and CF driveshaft.

I mean, the Redeye has 797 hp and can be optioned up similar in cost to the GT500 CFTP, but it's slow around a track. The Redeye Widebody msrp is $78k, and it's not fast around a track either -- but it has 797 hp.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The GT500 CFTP is fast around a track for the price, it's just that the ZLE is exceptionally fast around a track for the price. Aside from the ZLE, nothing in the same price range as a GT500 CFTP comes remotely close to it around a track except the C7 Z06, which obviously isn't made anymore.

The cars adjacent to the GT500 CFTP at Lightning lap:

Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 2:44.0
Dodge Viper ACR (2016): 2:44.2
GT500 CFTP: 2:44.6
2015 Corvette Z06: 2:44.6 (M7)
Lamborghini Huracan Evo: 2:45.0
ZLE: 2.45.0
Ferrari 488 GTB: 2:45.1

Heck, the McLaren 650S Spider ran a 2:45.8.

Aside from the Z06 and the ZLE, the cars that ran similar times to the GT500 CFTP cost much, much more than it.

Look at some more expensive cars below it, for comparison as well:

BMW M8 Comp: 2:55.5 (nearly twice the price and severely underrated at 617 hp - they dyno over 610 whp)
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: 2:55.2 (more than twice the price)
Jaguar F type R ($104k base): 2:59.5 (the F type R performance is a joke for the money - it's 0.2 seconds slower than a '21 Supra 3.0)

If it weren't for the ZL1/ZLE/C8/C7 Z06, etc., the GT500 CFTP would be a performance bargain if you compare its times to the cars around it at LL.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

The GT500 CFTP is fast around a track for the price, it's just that the ZLE is exceptionally fast around a track for the price. Aside from the ZLE, nothing in the same price range as a GT500 CFTP comes remotely close to it around a track except the C7 Z06, which obviously isn't made anymore.

The cars adjacent to the GT500 CFTP at Lightning lap:

Lamborghini Huracan Performante: 2:44.0
Dodge Viper ACR (2016): 2:44.2
GT500 CFTP: 2:44.6
2015 Corvette Z06: 2:44.6 (M7)
Lamborghini Huracan Evo: 2:45.0
ZLE: 2.45.0
Ferrari 488 GTB: 2:45.1

Heck, the McLaren 650S Spider ran a 2:45.8.

Aside from the Z06 and the ZLE, the cars that ran similar times to the GT500 CFTP cost much, much more than it.

Look at some more expensive cars below it, for comparison as well:

BMW M8 Comp: 2:55.5 (nearly twice the price and severely underrated at 617 hp - they dyno over 610 whp)
Porsche Taycan Turbo S: 2:55.2 (more than twice the price)
Jaguar F type R ($104k base): 2:59.5 (the F type R performance is a joke for the money - it's 0.2 seconds slower than a '21 Supra 3.0)

If it weren't for the ZL1/ZLE/C8/C7 Z06, etc., the GT500 CFTP would be a performance bargain if you compare its times to the cars around it at LL.

The thing is that with all those other high priced cars you mentioned, you're also getting more out of those cars in tech, features, options...a GT500 is still just a Ford Mustang. But you're talkin Lambos and Rarris which carry a whole different level of respect. When you go cheaper, again the ZLE offers many options and features that the GT500 doesn't have. So the only thing the GT500 really has to offer is performance. And coming up short everywhere else, it really should be much faster than the ZLE if you ask me. But that is just me.

The way I look at the value of the GT500 is kinda like, you get such a great deal on the ZL1, but then to beat it you have to spend over $10K more. I'll put it like this. The ZL1 is buy 2 Whoppers for $5 while the GT500 is buy 2 Whoppers for $8. The other higher up cars are buy 2 Whoppers for $10 but you get fries, a drink, and cookies. God I'm starving. Yes the GT500 is a great deal for this level of performance IF the ZL1 and ZLE did not exist. But their existence turns the GT500 into not such a good deal. It is too much in between. For the price of it I can get a ZL1/ZLE and have money for mods left over...or I can spend a little more and get a Supercar that is loaded with much more in the way of options and features.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I haven't looked at the numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if Ford sells more Mustangs than GM sells (or sold) Camaro+CTS+ATS.

Cadillac wasn't pushing a lot of ATS/CTS sales the last half decade.

That likely negates the advantages of spreading the Alpha chassis out amongst several vehicle models. But maybe it helps by spreading the development costs to different companies.

The GT500 CFTP is expensive (speaking msrp) because it has 760 hp, DCT, Carbon fiber wheels, CF drive shaft, CF wing, etc.

The GT500 is more expensive than the ZL1 because it has 760 hp, DCT, and CF driveshaft.

I mean, the Redeye has 797 hp and can be optioned up similar in cost to the GT500 CFTP, but it's slow around a track. The Redeye Widebody msrp is $78k, and it's not fast around a track either -- but it has 797 hp.

True the sales were bad but the shared development costs is where the advantage was. GM got to split the platform development across 3 different models, got to share the development costs of engines across multiple models. All the development costs weren't focused into just 1 model.