[keystonemedical]

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

GM thinks customers are stupid. Hey lets change the paint colors and add more decals to the Camaro, They will buy anything. At least when Ford or Dodge does it they throw in 10 or 15hp!

Excellent point here...

[Craig]

GM’s products were 100% dialed in and sorted out before they ever went on sale. Cradle bushings are about the only recognized deficiency these cars have.

Ford’s product was half-baked and half-assed when it went on sale. If you’re still finding easy improvements 7 years into the product cycle then either your engineers suck or you deliberately hamstrung the car at launch which cheats the hell out of early buyers.

Ford threw in the towel on the Voodoo because it was a poorly engineered POS from a durability standpoint. This is just Ford fixing the worst mistakes they made on the GT350 and putting it back on sale as the Mach 1. It’s great marketing.

[Fraxum]

Ford has better Mustang marketing. Chevy builds the better Camaro sports muscle car. Which would you rather have? but if the CFO would let me I would have one of each.

[Brudda*Termite]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

I love the sunroof also! 80 proof Sunscreen!! My doctor burns off any bad looking stuff now. Being in my ocean going boat (walk around) did piss him off. Boat gone.

I originally chose the Camaro over the Mustang for that very reason. All it had was an expensive silly glass roof. Good choice for me.

As to track times it is pretty much a wash. But in the Mustang I feel like I am driving a good handling car. (I have driven many before the last refresh) But in the Camaro I feel like I am driving a sports car. It reminds me of my 2007 TT BMW 3 series with a stonkin Chevy small block. That BMW is part of the C&D G.O.A.T. article. Does it get better than that?

I am very happy my M6 LT1 with tires is faster than a stock M6 Coyote with similar tires.I am hoping to get my M6 LT1 with DRs, a Rotofab dry and a stock tune into the high 11s so I at least have a chance with the A10 cars.

But while we have all these fun discussions, isn't having fun with your car the real reason we buy them?

I'm a happy man, and I look forward to every day I drive my Camaro, and it's the first one I've owned at age 57. I came from the Mustang world, and regardless of any insurgent posts, Mustangs are just boring as hell to drive. Beautiful, and boring!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bhobbs]

The Camaro has a superior chassis. That's been true since day 1. The issue is GM doesn't develop engines like Ford does. They develop a base V8, a mid tier V8 and a Corvette only top tier V8. Once the engine is released, GM doesn't touch it again.

Ford upgrades their engines over the lifespan. Ford constantly develops new engines. Ford is pushing the boundaries with their engines. From the BOSS 302 to the 5.2 Voodoo to the Bullett 5.0, they constantly look to increase power or try new things.

GM has the new 6.6 liter gas V8 from the trucks. They could have easily CNC ported the heads, bumped the compression ratio and made a short runner intake for a Z/28 and Grand Sport engine but that's not GM's objective.

Edit: Obviously, the C8 Z06 will change things. The new engine should be ridiculous. Maybe GM was just investing more in the LT2 and FPC LT(6?) that will be in the Z06.

[Fraxum]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro has a superior chassis. That's been true since day 1. The issue is GM doesn't develop engines like Ford does. They develop a base V8, a mid tier V8 and a Corvette only top tier V8. Once the engine is released, GM doesn't touch it again.

Ford upgrades their engines over the lifespan. Ford constantly develops new engines. Ford is pushing the boundaries with their engines. From the BOSS 302 to the 5.2 Voodoo to the Bullett 5.0, they constantly look to increase power or try new things.

GM has the new 6.6 liter gas V8 from the trucks. They could have easily CNC ported the heads, bumped the compression ratio and made a short runner intake for a Z/28 and Grand Sport engine but that's not GM's objective.

Edit: Obviously, the C8 Z06 will change things. The new engine should be ridiculous. Maybe GM was just investing more in the LT2 and FPC LT(6?) that will be in the Z06.

True about the engine end of things. But Man I just love the way my the LT1 just squirts the Camaro down the road with out winding it out and attracting all that attention. And I am very happy with that motor in a sports car package.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

So this is what people are getting excited about? Seriously? Ford throws some stuff around, slaps a different badge on it, ups the price, and everyone criticizes GM for not doing the same thing?

I mean, maybe GM should take the LT4, remove the blower, throw it on a SLE, give it a different hood and front, call it a "Z28", ad sell them.
.

Yes. This late in the product life cycle is where they throw these things together to keep interest up. Challenger does the same thing, 1320, Scat Pack, Widebodys, Red Eyes. Trickle stuff down from the top models. Hell even Corvette has done this in the past. The Grand Sport is essentially a Z06 without the LT4 and you can still get the Z07 package, the C6 at the end you could get the LS7 without the Z06 package

What has GM done? Sticker and paint packages. Hot Wheels edition for over 4K( which I won't lie that was a damn good looking package I have a soft sport for Orange lol), Redline Edition for 2300, shock and steel addition for 3400.

Has Ford half assed some of those packages 100% Can't argue that.

Just saying that If I was upgrading Id rather pay more for something that offers a bit more performance than pay extra for some stickers and paint.


People would probably gobble up the Z/28 you described. Or if it was just ZLE bits on a 1LE with slight power bump it would be the perfect model inbetween the 1LE and the ZL1.

[17rsvert]

Originally Posted by shaffe

What has GM done? Sticker and paint packages. Hot Wheels edition for over 4K( which I won't lie that was a damn good looking package I have a soft sport for Orange lol), Redline Edition for 2300, shock and steel addition for 3400.

Just saying that If I was upgrading Id rather pay more for something that offers a bit more performance than pay extra for some stickers and paint.

You've put into words the difference between Ford and Chevy I was trying to point out originally. The automotive press will make a mention of a new appearance package, but if it's on a pre-existing trim level (performance wise) they are not going to do a full write-up/review/road test, nor are they going to do side by side comparisons to other cars. It will also not 'qualify' for Car of the Year, Best of Class, Best 10 or whatever else they write about.

I'm not saying that Ford's introduction of new performance trim levels and badging makes the Mustang better. It serves the purpose to keep the Mustang in the forefront with new press. Smart marketing.

[SFHess]

Originally Posted by shaffe

...the C6 at the end you could get the LS7 without the Z06 package

I may be mistaken but I don't think that is entirely true. I believe the only other Corvette you could get with the LS7 was the 427 convertible, which was a Z06 in almost all regards except it was on the steel frame instead of the aluminum frame the Z06 was, as without the roof, the aluminum just wasn't strong enough.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by 17rsvert

You've put into words the difference between Ford and Chevy I was trying to point out originally. The automotive press will make a mention of a new appearance package, but if it's on a pre-existing trim level (performance wise) they are not going to do a full write-up/review/road test, nor are they going to do side by side comparisons to other cars. It will also not 'qualify' for Car of the Year, Best of Class, Best 10 or whatever else they write about.

I'm not saying that Ford's introduction of new performance trim levels and badging makes the Mustang better. It serves the purpose to keep the Mustang in the forefront with new press. Smart marketing.

Exactly, almost all of these mustang packages are trickle down from the top or fixing something that shouldn't have been problem so I am not trying to say its better.

Just IMO the overall strategy is better especially this late in the generation.

Originally Posted by SFHess

I may be mistaken but I don't think that is entirely true. I believe the only other Corvette you could get with the LS7 was the 427 convertible, which was a Z06 in almost all regards except it was on the steel frame instead of the aluminum frame the Z06 was, as without the roof, the aluminum just wasn't strong enough.

True thanks for the clarification^ but either way its still mixing matching parts to make a new model for something late in the generation to keep interest up

[FarmerFran]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The Camaro has a superior chassis. That's been true since day 1. The issue is GM doesn't develop engines like Ford does. They develop a base V8, a mid tier V8 and a Corvette only top tier V8. Once the engine is released, GM doesn't touch it again.

Ford upgrades their engines over the lifespan. Ford constantly develops new engines. Ford is pushing the boundaries with their engines. From the BOSS 302 to the 5.2 Voodoo to the Bullett 5.0, they constantly look to increase power or try new things.

GM has the new 6.6 liter gas V8 from the trucks. They could have easily CNC ported the heads, bumped the compression ratio and made a short runner intake for a Z/28 and Grand Sport engine but that's not GM's objective.

Edit: Obviously, the C8 Z06 will change things. The new engine should be ridiculous. Maybe GM was just investing more in the LT2 and FPC LT(6?) that will be in the Z06.

And they do not have to in this regard. The age old pushrod works and works well. Why **** with it until you absolutely have to. I personally love my LT1 over my Coyote.

[triggerjerk]

Did we all forget about this from a year ago? 6.6L LT3.
https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/...led-exclusive/

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Fraxum

True about the engine end of things. But Man I just love the way my the LT1 just squirts the Camaro down the road with out winding it out and attracting all that attention. And I am very happy with that motor in a sports car package.

The LT1 is a solid engine. It's just showing its age when 480 horsepower Coyotes running around. Hell, how long has the 6.4 liter Hemi been out now?

Originally Posted by FarmerFran

And they do not have to in this regard. The age old pushrod works and works well. Why **** with it until you absolutely have to. I personally love my LT1 over my Coyote.

I'm not saying the pushrod V8 should die. I'm saying GM should make an effort to keep Camaro powern trains relevant.

Originally Posted by triggerjerk

Did we all forget about this from a year ago? 6.6L LT3.
https://www.musclecarsandtrucks.com/...led-exclusive/

Yeah, and its probably dead with the Z/28.

[triggerjerk]

^^^Yes, dead.
But obviously someone in GM though it was appropriate. Until Mary stepped in and killed non-ev vehicle spending. I mean, another truck engine with a different top end and still the Camaro doesn't get it.