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Old 10-15-2020, 09:32 PM   #29
DexnBlair
 
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What are you guys using to load your tune?
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:00 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i4heavychevy View Post
ok so i decided to flash back the stock tune, then reload the trifecta tune. must have been some type of error during the first upload (even though it said it was complete) so there is some gains now that I see. not sure what happened with the first upload. either way im going to run a data log and send it over to them to to make sure all is well on the tune. it does have gains. i noticed one thing that maybe you guys can help me with... this happens only some times not all the time......so when i come to a faster than normal stop it seems to not downshift fast enough. if i were to describe what happens i would say it stays in 3rd all the way down until it kinda bogs out at 500 rpm then suddenly downshifts into second or first and idels down normally after that. after the rpm "bounces off the 500 rpm marker it goes up to about 1100 and then idles out smoothly.

as for what i said about not feeling gains i retract those comments it was simply not loaded Properly. it does have noticeable gains but now has that one random shifting issue.

so to clear things up because maybe they didnt understand my question. trifecta can tune to a larger turbo?
Yes, they can. Preferably, their in-house T40 Turbo they source from a German company specifically for our car called Mach5. These turbos have a larger compressor and turbine wheel in a milled out stock housing.

The only thing I can think of as to why they wouldn't remote tune a different turbo or larger turbo, is the possibility of blowing up your engine especially on stock rods and pistons. Also, I'm no Wook Wook, but I'd imagine trying to do the initial full pulls on a stock tune or even their canned tune with a way larger turbo would be catastrophic. It would probably be a nightmare going back and forth a million times trying to get it right remotely. I'm not saying it can't be done, just sketchy doing it remotely and not in-person on their dyno.

They are not new to high hp ecotec engines. The owner Vince, has a 500hp 2.0T Camaro in the shop with a bunch of one off custom made parts and an EFR 7670 turbo.

What are your hp goals? What are you wanting to do with the car? Drag race? Auto-X? Track night? Street racing?
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Last edited by Start The Machine; 10-16-2020 at 02:12 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 02:09 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DexnBlair View Post
What are you guys using to load your tune?
Their proprietary software and obd2 to USB cable that connects to your laptop.
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Last edited by Start The Machine; 10-16-2020 at 02:21 AM.
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Old 10-16-2020, 01:08 PM   #32
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i4heavychevy, did you notice the same thing I described with it not downshifting as often and it producing acceleration via boost alone?

Maybe I need my buddy to reload his tune if things are not as I described...
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:36 AM   #33
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ok good news. I was gonna say, i looked around and there was note some where they said it may to 2 rounds of uploads for A8, i assume one for the TCU and one for the ECU.

The slow to close TPS. Its a thing with the engine. One thing I appreciate the M6 for. You jam the clutch as in a course run and the engine keeps up the RPMS under the high load and sudden decel. After I work out my current projects I should come back to it and see what if anything affects it. I 'dont' think its a blow off through the intake right now, since the Jacfab is extremely efficient at wasting the boost. Its still a mystery, to me too. All I can say is eventually as the thrill wears down, you wont be driving as aggressively and it wont be as much of a problem usually. Small consollation I know.

The engine momentum is a 'thing' and several have reported it. It's not flywheel or anything mechanical b/c it affects both A8 and M6, its in the ecu RPM/TPS ramp down logic, i am pretty certain. That the track I am taking for now.

* - Actually now that I reflect on it, someone suggested its a burn off strategy for waste fuel and air as to why the delayed sense of engine throttle down is, its an emissions strategy and its magnified because of the underlying linkage in the tables are altered from stock now, it seems we haven't found the magic bullet to smooth that out yet. yet.... its just tied to the increase in torque and there are a lot of potential links that contribute, but may not necessarily be perfectly visible in the tables. Its like trying to stop a barge now, as opposed to a fishing boat. Someone will find an effective link someday. I think it was brought up in the Randy Probst post a while ago.

So turbo upgrade. Not to sell short on 'tunes' that shops spend hours and dollars developing, so I am careful not to delve far into the tuning needed to go into the 'advanced' tables to use the increase torque of bigger turbos. Suffice it to say it needs specific reads from histograms that have special math calculations and certain table settings temporarily staged to lock things like extra fueling to read the adjustments.

In a nutshell, its an experiential re-calibration based on your setup. as in actual dyno reads. It can be done on the street, yes that it's true you don't Require a shop, but for most people its the way to go. Its a back and forth kind of involvement that STM said before. You wont blow anything up if you drive home on a bigger turbo, but wont gain anything because no growth/room for power was sent to affected the tables yet.

It aint your grandfathers Oldsmobile, taking from the old advertisement, remember them? Yeah. Its all very very tightly controlled for emissions and MPG now. All computer logic. GM makes it easy to get basic tweaks to a point, but the hard core stuff like turbos, requires more thought and skill to pull it off well.

sorry for the book, just my musing.
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Last edited by wookwook; 10-17-2020 at 12:54 PM.
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Old 10-17-2020, 03:48 PM   #34
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Anyone familiar with National Speed located in Wilmington, NC? They are slightly over 2 hours away but the reviews seem good overall.

https://nationalspeedinc.com/dyno-tune/
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Old 10-17-2020, 06:45 PM   #35
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website seems impressive. i would say go for it. you have nothing to loose over the standards suggested in past posts, and please review it here. I wished there was more reviews on vermont tuning. Your not gonna get solicitations per se on here. just look through the history on here and go for it.
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Old 10-17-2020, 11:35 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wookwook View Post
website seems impressive. i would say go for it. you have nothing to loose over the standards suggested in past posts, and please review it here. I wished there was more reviews on vermont tuning. Your not gonna get solicitations per se on here. just look through the history on here and go for it.
My biggest thing is I want to find a tuner locally, if possible, that knows these cars. So if an issue arises I can actually take the car to the shop. I cannot imagine the hassle that trying to work on it remotely will be. If I were to have to have the laptop connected to the car for it to be looked at remotely, live, that would be an issue for me. I live in the country with poor internet connection.
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Old 10-18-2020, 12:03 PM   #37
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Just give them a call and gauge your comfort level. For me, my thought is if they do Camaros, you will be fine. Its very similar. If I can do my numbers below by reading The Tuning School Gen v guide and only started this last year, a pro shop will have no problem.

Granted I have have a year of additional tinkering, but stack that against a pro shop doing it for a living. You should be fine.

If you want daily street low budget a bolt on (FBO) tune will be simple and gratifying. If you want power to take to the strip/course, its a little different you will need access to pump E85, but a turbo upgrade is a good set it and forget it bolt on. It will need some dyno time. Hope that helps. Post your progress!
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Old 10-22-2020, 11:00 AM   #38
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Called National Speed. They sounded really knowledgeable and I feel pretty comfortable with them doing the tune. Said they have done may similar to the MOD's I am looking to make. Told me the price for a dyno tune is about $1000 which includes licensing credits via Hp tuners, full HD video from the tune on the dyno, and graphs associated. It will also include a pre-dyno inspection to make sure the vehicle is safe to dyno!

This sound reasonable?
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Old 10-22-2020, 12:17 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DexnBlair View Post
Called National Speed. They sounded really knowledgeable and I feel pretty comfortable with them doing the tune. Said they have done may similar to the MOD's I am looking to make. Told me the price for a dyno tune is about $1000 which includes licensing credits via Hp tuners, full HD video from the tune on the dyno, and graphs associated. It will also include a pre-dyno inspection to make sure the vehicle is safe to dyno!

This sound reasonable?
These ecotec engines are extremely unconventional to tune. You really need to have experience with them and know exactly how they work. There are all kinds of bazaar tables in the ECU to adjust. Wook could explain it, but it would just go over everyone's head.

Does HPTuners have the ability to read the e85 kit?

$1000 is $400 more than everyone else is charging even with the dyno session. Trying to justify it with a video you can simply film yourself with your own phone is just silly.
That extra $400 can go towards a bigger turbo or other mods you want to do.

If they are your only option with a dyno I guess your hands are tied. Just study everything you can about this engine. Know what hp and tq numbers to expect. Tell them, if they blow up your engine, they are going to supply and install aftermarket rods and pistons from ZZP.

Make sure to have these supporting mods installed before you go.

E85 Kit
Intake Tube
K&N Style Air Filter
Recirculation Valve
Downpipe
Larger Throttle Body
Charge Pipes

WAIT TILL BLACK FRIDAY TO BUY THIS STUFF!!!

Also, I would check on black Friday tuning specials from Trifecta. You might be able to parlay the savings with their turbo upgrade and save money on the combo.
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Old 10-22-2020, 02:48 PM   #40
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yeah definitely bolt up first. I looked at the website and they do some pretty hi end stuff.

Its not like "no one" can do a good job for ya. Yes the tables. It is really not intuitive, anything other than the most obvious stuff, spark is easy, air - you want to make sure your MAF calibration is spot on. Other than that it seems like witches brew, I think everyone has their own thing whether it matters or not I couldn't say.

The main take away is Pros know that there are algorithms that are invisible, and probably will work within what they know. Some tables are just bizzare. RPM Limited Commanded Torque vs RPM Error and Cylinder Air for Predicted Torque? Frigging 3rd level quadratics? 4 Dimensional curves, Really?? Why doesn't the button just read, Move this higher to reduce Axle torque limiter during shift transients??? That's the challenge. You just don't know the hieroglyphics until you get in there and alter it and measure. There are dozens of these tables. It is Very time consuming to unravel all there might be to know about.

I personally think many tune sellers don't go that far into it, to figuring out some of this stuff, or else can't or won't offer those edits to you. They know there are limiters in play, and will go to a certain point and stop before you need advanced time-consuming edits. I'm talking about email tunes mostly.

But you really don't have to know rocket science to get a good boost. It is easy to put the reserve boost into play, that's the part where your at high altitude and the un-tuned car will feel relatively normal cause it will pull more boost to compensate across all types of atmospheres. But if you set your ECU to use All of the boost in your demanded Torque tables All the time now, as in a canned tune (all tunes), then you Will notice that performance isn't what you got used to on those Hot days and High DA.

Cause your using the reserve all the time now. You get used to the power, but there's no buffer for the engine to draw on for those bad atmosphere days. So its more noticeable on tuned engines on hot days. But so what, it cools down at night and half the year for some of us. I mean its not like your gonna be worse off, its just noticeable.

If you follow racing, they always bitch about high DAs. It affects this engine quite a bit. That's a likely reason someone complains about a tune result, they dropped the tune file in July, and on super Hot humid days performance does trail off a bit. That's why the drag strip is a parking lot in the Fall. Everyone is after the low DAs to pull the good time slips. Check the Drag threads in here and time stamps on those slips. Oct/Nov late in the day. Mine included.

I do a lot of my own tweaking for better or worse and haven't broken anything yet. Its a hobby and a very very difficult puzzle to work on over time. But I have found some good edits that probably, not many people know about.

Oh on my soap box lol, sorry. Make sure you get a copy of your Tune files. HP tuners is good, you can have a record and then someone else can work with the file later if you moved or something.

More or less preaching to the choir. just my 2cents.

W.
__________________
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.
.

NFG M6 2T
Mishimoto Hot side pie | ZZP Catted DP | KN Drop in | Borla - Sport Tour | Apex Arc 8 - square | Wookster Tuning+ | Flex Fuel

Last PB
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:34 PM   #41
DexnBlair
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Start The Machine View Post
These ecotec engines are extremely unconventional to tune. You really need to have experience with them and know exactly how they work. There are all kinds of bazaar tables in the ECU to adjust. Wook could explain it, but it would just go over everyone's head.

Does HPTuners have the ability to read the e85 kit?

$1000 is $400 more than everyone else is charging even with the dyno session. Trying to justify it with a video you can simply film yourself with your own phone is just silly.
That extra $400 can go towards a bigger turbo or other mods you want to do.

If they are your only option with a dyno I guess your hands are tied. Just study everything you can about this engine. Know what hp and tq numbers to expect. Tell them, if they blow up your engine, they are going to supply and install aftermarket rods and pistons from ZZP.

Make sure to have these supporting mods installed before you go.

E85 Kit
Intake Tube
K&N Style Air Filter
Recirculation Valve
Downpipe
Larger Throttle Body
Charge Pipes

WAIT TILL BLACK FRIDAY TO BUY THIS STUFF!!!

Also, I would check on black Friday tuning specials from Trifecta. You might be able to parlay the savings with their turbo upgrade and save money on the combo.
Yes, the intent is to have those mods done before I go and I am defiantly waiting until black Friday to purchase this stuff.

Ill look at trifecta as well on black Friday.

Unfortunately they are about the only one remotely close to local that can tune this engine. The guy I spoke to said they have done some of the ATS with the 2.0T, but not a Camaro but they are the same engine. I asked him his suggest upgrades and he was basically dead on with your suggestions with a few minor differences on brands (brands they offer). I told them I was going to do the modifications to the car prior to getting there and simply wanted a tune with the upgrades. I thought the price was a bit high, which is why I was asking. From what I have read HPtuners does have e85 reading ability. I will check with Trifecta and see what they say and if it is easy enough I might just go with a remote tune. Just not very comfortable with a remote tune. I am an old school guy trying to learn new tech. LOL

Last edited by DexnBlair; 10-22-2020 at 06:54 PM.
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Old 10-22-2020, 06:47 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wookwook View Post
yeah definitely bolt up first. I looked at the website and they do some pretty hi end stuff.

Its not like "no one" can do a good job for ya. Yes the tables. It is really not intuitive, anything other than the most obvious stuff, spark is easy, air - you want to make sure your MAF calibration is spot on. Other than that it seems like witches brew, I think everyone has their own thing whether it matters or not I couldn't say.

The main take away is Pros know that there are algorithms that are invisible, and probably will work within what they know. Some tables are just bizzare. RPM Limited Commanded Torque vs RPM Error and Cylinder Air for Predicted Torque? Frigging 3rd level quadratics? 4 Dimensional curves, Really?? Why doesn't the button just read, Move this higher to reduce Axle torque limiter during shift transients??? That's the challenge. You just don't know the hieroglyphics until you get in there and alter it and measure. There are dozens of these tables. It is Very time consuming to unravel all there might be to know about.

I personally think many tune sellers don't go that far into it, to figuring out some of this stuff, or else can't or won't offer those edits to you. They know there are limiters in play, and will go to a certain point and stop before you need advanced time-consuming edits. I'm talking about email tunes mostly.

But you really don't have to know rocket science to get a good boost. It is easy to put the reserve boost into play, that's the part where your at high altitude and the un-tuned car will feel relatively normal cause it will pull more boost to compensate across all types of atmospheres. But if you set your ECU to use All of the boost in your demanded Torque tables All the time now, as in a canned tune (all tunes), then you Will notice that performance isn't what you got used to on those Hot days and High DA.

Cause your using the reserve all the time now. You get used to the power, but there's no buffer for the engine to draw on for those bad atmosphere days. So its more noticeable on tuned engines on hot days. But so what, it cools down at night and half the year for some of us. I mean its not like your gonna be worse off, its just noticeable.

If you follow racing, they always bitch about high DAs. It affects this engine quite a bit. That's a likely reason someone complains about a tune result, they dropped the tune file in July, and on super Hot humid days performance does trail off a bit. That's why the drag strip is a parking lot in the Fall. Everyone is after the low DAs to pull the good time slips. Check the Drag threads in here and time stamps on those slips. Oct/Nov late in the day. Mine included.

I do a lot of my own tweaking for better or worse and haven't broken anything yet. Its a hobby and a very very difficult puzzle to work on over time. But I have found some good edits that probably, not many people know about.

Oh on my soap box lol, sorry. Make sure you get a copy of your Tune files. HP tuners is good, you can have a record and then someone else can work with the file later if you moved or something.

More or less preaching to the choir. just my 2cents.

W.

Thanks for the info. Yea, I have been around racing all my life. Even won a few local track championships. But they were all old school muscle type race cars. The only tune was setting the rev limiter on the MSD ignition box. LOL.

I am going to still keep looking and will call trifecta as well.
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