[HawkeyeMike]

As I've improved both in Autocross and track days, and have started getting more and more comfortable living at the limits of my SS's traction, I've started hitting the "Ice Mode" problem more and more at events.

For those who aren't familiar with this issue, I will try to explain it to the best of my understanding (if you are familiar, and my explanation is wrong, please correct me so I have better knowledge). Basically, what is happening is that under certain transitions from hard accel into hard braking, the car is sensing some kind of slippage somewhere, thinks the car is on ice, and puts the car into Ice Mode, thus removing power assist from the brake pedal. The pedal becomes very stiff to the feel, and the end result is MUCH less effective braking, causing the car to overshoot the corner. This is not the ABS kicking on...that is a different feeling...and with ABS the car still slows fairly effectively. Also, this is completely independent of the Traction or Stability control (I always drive in Track Mode with TC and SC off). So, the software is overriding my decision to turn all the nannies off.

My experience with this is that it occurs more often towards the end of a session where the brakes are hottest, and when I'm the very closest to driving at the cars limit. Probably coming into corners very hot, but not locking the brakes to the point where ABS kicks on. Just...something that the car is sensing is not quite right to the software. Anyway, it seems to happen to me at the worst possible time - I'm getting ready to post my fast time of the day after nailing the first 95% of an autoX run, and I'm very hot into the final corner and the car decides not to stop. It happened at this past weekend's AX event and my first reaction, after a slew of cursing, was to sell the car.

I love this car, and don't want to sell it...but if I can't find a way around this issue...I just don't know if I can keep racing it. I can envision this happening at the end of a 120MPH straight some time, causing major problems. I don't want to drive scared - worrying about whether my car will stop.

So...my questions to everyone: does this happen to you? How do you manage it? Does anyone know of a software fix? Can I pull some fuse somewhere? Is GM aware of this and just doesn't care?

Another Camaro driver in my local group (1LE) says for him it is about being smoother, and that he notices it will occur on ultra quick transitions from heavy accel to heavy brake. His solution is to just be smoother. If that works for him, fine, but to me a faster transition means faster times, and I don't want my times limited by worrying about software interfering with my improvement. And, ultimately, if I'm stabbing at the brake pedal too quickly, it should the tire's traction limits to be the determining factor of whether I'm not being smooth enough, not the software's interpretation of it.

Thanks for anyone who can help out here,
Mike

[Move_Over]

I’ve never experienced it, in my c6z or camaro. Maybe trying to be a little smoother on your brake application would help. Are you left or right foot braking?

[cgdelena]

I used to track an S2000 and quickly found the stock pads would exhibit 'pad fade' at a certain temp. Sure sound familiar.

Solution on that car was different pads and cooling ducts.

[HawkeyeMike]

Originally Posted by Move_Over

I’ve never experienced it, in my c6z or camaro. Maybe trying to be a little smoother on your brake application would help. Are you left or right foot braking?

Thanks for the advice, I will take it. I am a right foot braker, by the way. I'm always happy to take driving advice, always working to improve. This is the same solution as my buddy in the 1LE recommended to me. I get it.

But, that is not why I started this thread. If I am not driving smooth enough, the tires are what should tell me that. Not the cars electronics (which are getting it wrong anyway - there is no ice). I'm looking for a solution other than "Drive Smoother" for this issue.

Thanks,
Mike

[HawkeyeMike]

Originally Posted by cgdelena

I used to track an S2000 and quickly found the stock pads would exhibit 'pad fade' at a certain temp. Sure sound familiar.

Solution on that car was different pads and cooling ducts.

Thanks, but I'm not looking for anyone to diagnose the problem. I'm looking for help in dealing with it.

This has nothing to do with brake fade. I experienced this issue last season on stock pads. This season same on new EBC Bluestuffs. And I can replicate it on cold brakes, it's just much less common to happen until things are heated up and I'm driving right on the edge. I've felt fade before. This is at least a semi-known issue where Ice Mode kicks on.

Here is a video of someone else having this issue on an AX course:


Also, I won't speak for ApexIT (maybe we can get him to comment here?) but I believe one of the reasons he switched to another make for this year's racing is this same issue.

Thanks,
Mike

[Move'n Up]

I have experienced Ice Mode on track with my Z06 that has the Z07 package which includes 14.5" Carbon Ceramic brakes. It is without a doubt a hair raising experience when it happens because it totally catches you off guard. Lucky it happened in an area with safe run off so I didn't hit anything.

You are correct and it has everything to do with an abrupt transition from acceleration to braking. Since it first happened to me I have been able to reproduce the effect, almost at will. As previously mentioned, smooth transition is the key.

[apexit53]

I only tracked dayed mine once and never had the issue. with track days vs autocross im a lot more patient on the brakes as im there to have fun and not go for overall lap times so maybe thats why i didnt hit it. Also i maybe got a lap or two without someone in may way.

As for autoX. this is the exact reason i sold mine and went to a civic type R. I couldnt spend another year in the car being nationally competitive knowing once i got to nats i would just have ice mode get in my way.

One solution i had was i had to stop left foot braking with the camaro. It just does not like a lot of throttle then a lot of braking all at once! Planning out your braking zone ahead of time, giving yourself a split second between gas and brake helped me.

Also I ran mine in sport throttle! Track is soo aggressive its kinda stupid. 60% throttle down almost feels like 100% to the floor. going to sport throttle helped make the throttle a lot more linear feeling.

The next solution... get a 2019+ They fixed this issue with the 2019 refresh. Its actually cool because GMs autocross team noticed the issue cause they were having it themselves, and they listened to us.

Its up to you but i would learn with this car and trade in for a 2020 when they fix the refresh. I know for me I will be looking at a 2020 1LE in rally green next year if i can sell the type r at the end of the season!

[HawkeyeMike]

OK thanks. So, GM has fixed this for us, but they aren't going to provide a software update for the 16-18 models? I suppose that will have to do, I guess I'm glad that they cared enough to fix it at all.
Just to clarify, they fixed this for 2019, or 2020?
I have never considered racing in Sport mode instead of Track. I will give that a try next event.
For now, I guess "Drive Smoother" will have to do. It will be fun I suppose to start now in planning for next year. Do I keep this car and stay in F Street and just deal with being a bit slower than I otherwise could be without this issue? Do I upgrade to a '20 1LE and move to CAMC? Or join my son and build a Solo Spec Coupe car?
Thanks again,
Mike

[apexit53]

Originally Posted by HawkeyeMike

OK thanks. So, GM has fixed this for us, but they aren't going to provide a software update for the 16-18 models? I suppose that will have to do, I guess I'm glad that they cared enough to fix it at all.
Just to clarify, they fixed this for 2019, or 2020?
I have never considered racing in Sport mode instead of Track. I will give that a try next event.
For now, I guess "Drive Smoother" will have to do. It will be fun I suppose to start now in planning for next year. Do I keep this car and stay in F Street and just deal with being a bit slower than I otherwise could be without this issue? Do I upgrade to a '20 1LE and move to CAMC? Or join my son and build a Solo Spec Coupe car?
Thanks again,
Mike

They fixed it for anything 2019 and newer. I am glad they fixed it for us because if you think about it, autocrossers and track day people are a small part of their market. they didnt have to but because they have an autocross team they did.

nope there will be no software fix.. the reason being from my understanding is you get into safety issues. since it wasnt tested on 2016-2017 camaros they would have to do crash tests again on the older cars and they just wont do it. government regulation stuff i dont fully understand.

why not a 20 1LE in BS with me!! lol

solo spec coupe is cool ut taking to some guys who have done it, the car kinda looses its luster after a while. they wana go faster and have better tires so the end up building STX cars lol

[Move'n Up]

Glad to hear they addressed the issue, even if it's not on previous year models.

[HawkeyeMike]

Ya, I think if I were to do SSC, it would be just so I could compete with my son. He is 17 and is in his 2nd full season running a stock FR-S in D street. And it would also be to road race the car in T4 club events. But...I really like the Camaro, and I couldn't afford to keep it and also buy an SSC car.

B Street may work, but in our region CAMC is really popular. That's what I like about F Street too - there is always a bunch of guys to race against. But maybe...I will do some research.

And who knows, if you guys don't find a location to hold more events, you may find yourself whupping up on us at ours.

I also plan to take the car to nationals this year for the first time. My son and brother (M2) will join as well. Should be a fun, learning, experience. I will definitely pay attention to any 2020 Camaros that may be there!

Thanks,
Mike

[JeffFox]

I wonder if the Camaro Team would address this? Specifically how to avoid it.

[TrackClub]

I suspect an SS is calibrated differently from a 1LE?
I have not had even a hint of it in 2 yrs of tracking mine at several different venues. And i dont believe any other 1LE owner reported this issue regardless of tires and pads...I did experience it once in my old C5Z at the Glen. I was on slicks, with aggressive pads and aftermarket suspension. Here is a link to some info on the subject from a Vette Forum. It does appear to be ABS calibration related and perhaps influenced by mods:

https://www.corvetteforum.com/forums...ing-modes.html

[Norm Peterson]

Thanks for the link, TrackClub. Well worth the trouble I had saving it to a file.


To Hawkeye - smooth does not necessarily mean slow. But you do need think in terms of "squeeze" rather than "stomp". A steep line on a graph as opposed to a vertical one, if you're mathematically oriented.

Tadge's answer does suggest that the software has to do a lot of anticipation since it really doesn't know how fast the car is actually traveling or how much slip - aka "speed error" - is happening at any or all of the tires. And this slip could be on the order of several percent, since braking traction comes with a %slip just like cornering comes with slip angles.

Even the tires would rather see a steep-ish ramp up to max braking than an instantaneous spike that amounts to a 'shock'. Tire behavior is not like the all or nothing static/sliding-block demonstrations in H.S. physics class, not even in gentle street driving.


Norm