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Old 11-21-2021, 01:33 PM   #1
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V6 none 1le for AutoX?

Would a v6 none 1LE still be a decent AutoX car? I'm not interested in the 2.0*.

I really want to sign up at LimeRock's AutoX this coming Spring and after missing out 21 1LE options, I have to settle on optioning out a V6 with the best factory upgrades.

-RS
-Breaks w/oil cooler
-Performance Exhaust
-Lowered Suspension option
-Performance Seats

Anyone AutoX a V6?
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Old 11-21-2021, 10:53 PM   #2
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You can most certainly autocross a V6 Camaro. If you care about being competitive, the problem is that the V6 will be classed in F Street and it will not be competitive against the SS or V6 1LE. You will be stuck with 8.5" wheels and 245-width tires whether you get the 18" or 20" wheels, and you'll be stuck with the softest suspension (I don't think the lowering package is allowed in Street class, but I'm not 100% sure). It will be a very competent car - it just won't be a winner if anyone of equal driving ability shows up in an SS, Mustang GT, or especially an E90 M3. Its more likely than not, too, that the SS 1LE will end up in FS next year too. So that will put all lower Camaro trims out of the running. For just autocross duty, you don't need the performance exhaust or oil cooler, and you really don't need the brake upgrades either. They won't hurt anything, of course, but they won't help you autocross either.

So in another thread, it was made clear that currently all V6 Camaros are not being produced at all. Are you sure you can find a new one? If not, it might make sense to look for a slightly used 2021 V6 1LE. That car would be significantly better for autocrossing and it's in the same class.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:40 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msquared View Post
You can most certainly autocross a V6 Camaro. If you care about being competitive, the problem is that the V6 will be classed in F Street and it will not be competitive against the SS or V6 1LE. You will be stuck with 8.5" wheels and 245-width tires whether you get the 18" or 20" wheels, and you'll be stuck with the softest suspension (I don't think the lowering package is allowed in Street class, but I'm not 100% sure). It will be a very competent car - it just won't be a winner if anyone of equal driving ability shows up in an SS, Mustang GT, or especially an E90 M3. Its more likely than not, too, that the SS 1LE will end up in FS next year too. So that will put all lower Camaro trims out of the running. For just autocross duty, you don't need the performance exhaust or oil cooler, and you really don't need the brake upgrades either. They won't hurt anything, of course, but they won't help you autocross either.

So in another thread, it was made clear that currently all V6 Camaros are not being produced at all. Are you sure you can find a new one? If not, it might make sense to look for a slightly used 2021 V6 1LE. That car would be significantly better for autocrossing and it's in the same class.
I was actually reading about the classes last night and realized base V6's are classed with wayyy more powered/capable cars. You make a great point.

Is the base suspension too soft? That's my rationale for the optioned lowered suspension- limit that body roll from factory.

I look for used 1LE's everyday.
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Old 11-22-2021, 05:24 AM   #4
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I don't think lime rock actually has classes for its auto X. You're just running against everyone. Doubt you'll ever find a used V6 1le. I think the people who buy them drive them til they're dead. You may want to consider a base LT1, the price difference isn't as big as you think. You can always mod the suspension later.
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Old 11-22-2021, 06:30 AM   #5
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:11 AM   #6
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Lower and stiffer is almost always faster for autocross use, so the base V6 would definitely benefit from that. Even more important would be wider wheels and tires. The V6 1LE or current SS would give you those things. The SS 1LE gives more of the same, along with some other goodies.

If the place where you plan to autocross truly has no classes or rules about modifications, that makes this a lot easier. Just get the most stripped down V6 you can find in terms of suspension and performance. Save the money you would have spent on the performance options and put it toward buying some key aftermarket upgrades:
  • 19x11 wheels front and rear and 305/30/19 competition tires (e.g. Falken RT660)
  • Camber plates for the front (Vorshlag is a great choice)
  • Toe links for the rear (allows more rear camber)
  • Good coilovers with adjustable damping and much stiffer springs (look at the MCS set that Vorshlag sells).
  • Maybe an aftermarket differential if these cars don't come with an LSD from the factory (I'm not sure).
  • Maybe - maybe - a set of adjustable sway bars, but this may not even be necessary.

With these mods, you'll be faster than any stock Camaro for autocross purposes (yes, even faster than a ZLE). Keep your stock wheels and tires for driving between events, or at least for winter use. If you ever want to compete in a group that uses SCCA classes, you would run that car in CAM-C with those mods. And it will still be quite competitive. In fact, a 2.0T Camaro won CAM-C at the big Challenge event in 2018.

Make sure what rules there really are where you plan to autocross. If cars really have no rules or classes, and the rank order of the results is not indexed by anything (like PAX index), then you need to know that you'll never win in anything street legal. An open-wheel Mod car can come in at any time and destroy any street car in the world...easily. At that point, you have to decide if that's really even worth the effort. If all you want to do is drive fast and have fun (i.e. competing doesn't matter) there may be closer or more laid back groups to run in. I don't know about your area. I'm just saying be sure what the rules are and what your goals for autocrossing are before you spec a car for the purpose.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:58 AM   #7
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Old 11-22-2021, 11:08 AM   #8
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I am running a RS V6 in FS. Tire width is open, whatever can fit on the stock width wheel and fit under the fenders. You are also allowed to go up or down 1" in Dia, but have to keep the stock width. 200 Treadwear tires are the lowest treadwear rating you can use. I know you can change a swaybar, I am looking for what is the best for the Camaro. You are also allowed to change the shocks in stay in FS.

Ran my first autocross last month, got my ass kicked by a mustang. However, it was my first event in many years. First time in a high horsepower car, use to autocross Miata's. Previous to that when I was winning was a 1st gen RX-7.

Any tips-suggestions to improve the handling and still stay in class would be greatly appricated. Starting with Front Roll Bar.

Thanks
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Old 11-22-2021, 02:05 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Hunter's Run View Post
I am running a RS V6 in FS. Tire width is open, whatever can fit on the stock width wheel and fit under the fenders. You are also allowed to go up or down 1" in Dia, but have to keep the stock width. 200 Treadwear tires are the lowest treadwear rating you can use. I know you can change a swaybar, I am looking for what is the best for the Camaro. You are also allowed to change the shocks in stay in FS.
...
Any tips-suggestions to improve the handling and still stay in class would be greatly appricated. Starting with Front Roll Bar.
Tires are easily the single biggest improvement you can make. Your stock wheels are 20x8.5, right? I'd recommend going 19x8.5 with the proper offset. Mount a set of 245/35/19 Falken RT660 tires to them. They are a good bit shorter than your stock tires, but that's actually good for minimizing weight transfer in braking and turning. Falken makes a 265/35/19, but the minimum recommended rim width for those is 9", and I doubt they will gain you anything in performance.

Align the car. Go all in on front camber and use 0 toe. Go as far on rear camber as you can while still keeping 0 toe (at some point in going negative on camber, the toe goes toward toe out and you can't adjust it back to zero, so that's your limit on rear camber).

You can change the shocks, but you cannot use aftermarket adjustable coilovers. So the problem becomes finding plain shocks/struts that aren't designed to be used with aftermarket 2.5" springs adn adjustable perches. Bilstein makes some, but I don't know how much of an improvement they'd be over stock. You could contact Vorshlag or Strano and see if they have any thoughts about some really good dampers, like MCS/Ohlins/Penske/JRi. Make sure you let them know you're staying in FS and therefore cannot use their listed coilover components.

After that, you need to drive the car and see if it tends to oversteer or understeer. You can use the single sway bar upgrade allowance to deal with that. In your case, I'd stiffen whichever end is sticking better, rather than softening the end that is breaking loose. So if it oversteers, get a bigger front bar; and if it understeers get a bigger rear bar. Depending on how much more stiffness you need (i.e., how bad the oversteer or understeer is), you may need to go a little stiffer (e.g. upgrade to the SS bar or maybe the SS 1LE bar), or a lot stiffer (BMR or Hotchkiss adjustable). I don't think we'll be able to tell you right now what's "best" in terms of sway bars until you gather this info. Who knows? Maybe the car will be dialed in perfectly without even changing the stock bars. If so, that's money in the bank for you.
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Old 11-22-2021, 04:22 PM   #10
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The V6 1LE is a great way to go, if you can find one. I am very happy with mine. I've modified mine just a bit with Vorshlag camber plates and a square 18x10 wheel set up. If I had to do it over again, I would get 18x10.5 or 18x11. I think Apex now has a forged 18x11 option that is made for the Camaro. With this setup and very good tires, you could be locally competitive CAM-C.

The stock suspension works quite well for an affordable car. I have not seen any evidence that the Bilsteins would be an improvement, and I am too cheap to get something like MCS coilovers for a car that cost me $28k new.
There are a lot of burly sway bars out there but I have not found the V6 1LE too soft in terms of roll stiffness. Roll angle looks acceptable to me in all the track and a/x photos I've seen of the car in action. My criteria is not to be a top competitor, just to enjoy the car, but I am demanding about handling dynamics.

In answer to someone earlier in the thread pondering whether the V6 has a LSD, the answer is yes. But it is not the magic E-LSD found on the SS 1LE.
Last comment - the V6 with NPP exhaust sounds REALLY good when it hits high rpm. I've gotten a bunch of compliments about that from people are surprised that a non-V8 muscle car sounds good.
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Old 11-22-2021, 06:00 PM   #11
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I just thought of a possible option for Hunter's Run. I just remembered this allowance in the opening part of Section 13 (Street Category Rules) in the SCCA rulebook:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCCA
Option package conversions may be performed between specific vehicles of a particular make and model, but only between configurations from within a particular model year. Such conversions must be totally complete and the resultant car must meet all requirements of this Section. These requirements are not met by simply pulling a fuse to disable a feature which distinguishes one model from another.

Updated parts, replacement parts, or any other changes by the manufacturer documented in the parts catalog or other manufacturer documentation as superseding the original part number used when manufactured are considered to be standard parts.
Both the regular V6 and the V6 1LE are in F Street, so Hunter's Run could put the full V6 1LE parts package onto his RS and take full advantage of the following upgrades: FE3 suspension from the Camaro SS, 8.5/9.5 wheels front and rear, Brembo 4-piston front brake calipers, mechanical limited-slip differential with a 3.27:1 ratio, track-cooling package, suede steering wheel, short-throw shifter, dual-mode exhaust, Camaro SS fuel system to accommodate higher-load cornering, and a high flow front grille.

The biggest advantage is that you could run 245/35/19 front tires and 275/30/19 rears. That gets you a sizeable increase in rear tire footprint, which you can then balance out with one swaybar (if necessary). The FE3 spring and swaybar package from the V6 1LE is stiffer and probably a bit lower, which is helpful. Those are the easy and helpful parts.

Hopefully your car already has the same LSD and 3.27 gear ratio. You don't need the dual-mode exhaust, because exhaust is free in Street class after the cat. You wouldn't have to swap steering wheels because alternate steering wheels are allowed. I think you can skip the different grill under 13.2.A, since it isn't a performance improvement either way (for autocross use).

The harder parts might be the track-cooling package (not sure what all that includes, short-throw shifter, Camaro SS fuel system to accommodate higher-load cornering, and the 4-piston Brembos. It just depends on how hard/expensive those parts are to buy and how hard they are to install. Honestly you could get away without the fuel system - nobody would ever know or care because it's not to your benefit to leave it out. And if someone protested you for not having the short-throw shifter, you should slash their tires. The extra cooling stuff could legit be protested if you didn't have it, because it adds weight. The Brembos could be reasonably protested for the same reason, but at least upgrading to those is cool.

If I owned your car, I'd definitely look into this upgrade...seriously. It would make a real difference in the speed potential of your car for autocross work, and it would be a little more fun to drive fast too (less pitching and flopping around). I'd still try to find a good set of adjustable shocks, and definitely do the alignment. And you can still consider one larger sway bar, if you decide the balance with the two FE3 bars needs some tuning.

Autosenses, there's a chance this could be a useful upgrade path for you, too, if there's any chance you want to stay legal for Street classes in SCCA. And this is especially so if you can order/buy your V6 with the Brembos and oil cooler package: that might knock out two of the harder upgrades to do. Otherwise, you can still go considerably faster with the more extreme mods I recommended to you in post #6.
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Old 11-22-2021, 08:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Msquared View Post
I just thought of a possible option for Hunter's Run. I just remembered this allowance in the opening part of Section 13 (Street Category Rules) in the SCCA rulebook:

Both the regular V6 and the V6 1LE are in F Street, so Hunter's Run could put the full V6 1LE parts package onto his RS and take full advantage of the following upgrades: FE3 suspension from the Camaro SS, 8.5/9.5 wheels front and rear, Brembo 4-piston front brake calipers, mechanical limited-slip differential with a 3.27:1 ratio, track-cooling package, suede steering wheel, short-throw shifter, dual-mode exhaust, Camaro SS fuel system to accommodate higher-load cornering, and a high flow front grille.

The biggest advantage is that you could run 245/35/19 front tires and 275/30/19 rears. That gets you a sizeable increase in rear tire footprint, which you can then balance out with one swaybar (if necessary). The FE3 spring and swaybar package from the V6 1LE is stiffer and probably a bit lower, which is helpful. Those are the easy and helpful parts.

Hopefully your car already has the same LSD and 3.27 gear ratio. You don't need the dual-mode exhaust, because exhaust is free in Street class after the cat. You wouldn't have to swap steering wheels because alternate steering wheels are allowed. I think you can skip the different grill under 13.2.A, since it isn't a performance improvement either way (for autocross use).

The harder parts might be the track-cooling package (not sure what all that includes, short-throw shifter, Camaro SS fuel system to accommodate higher-load cornering, and the 4-piston Brembos. It just depends on how hard/expensive those parts are to buy and how hard they are to install. Honestly you could get away without the fuel system - nobody would ever know or care because it's not to your benefit to leave it out. And if someone protested you for not having the short-throw shifter, you should slash their tires. The extra cooling stuff could legit be protested if you didn't have it, because it adds weight. The Brembos could be reasonably protested for the same reason, but at least upgrading to those is cool.

If I owned your car, I'd definitely look into this upgrade...seriously. It would make a real difference in the speed potential of your car for autocross work, and it would be a little more fun to drive fast too (less pitching and flopping around). I'd still try to find a good set of adjustable shocks, and definitely do the alignment. And you can still consider one larger sway bar, if you decide the balance with the two FE3 bars needs some tuning.

Autosenses, there's a chance this could be a useful upgrade path for you, too, if there's any chance you want to stay legal for Street classes in SCCA. And this is especially so if you can order/buy your V6 with the Brembos and oil cooler package: that might knock out two of the harder upgrades to do. Otherwise, you can still go considerably faster with the more extreme mods I recommended to you in post #6.
Thanks for the input. Yes, I know the 1le on both the LT and SS very well. The LT V6 1LE comes with so much hardware it would be impossible to upgrade/replicate it. The Rear diff on the LT V6 is just a basic Limited Slip. On the 1LE, it's the Diff from the SS including the cooling. I want a 1le, but just too rare at this point. Thats why im considering the base V6 with as many factory options that makes it as cool/quick at possible under 35k. As a street car, I hope it drives, turns and feels like an E46m3 and is faster than my 2019 STI. As an AutoX car, I just want to be faster than my buddies in stock S000's, E36/46 M3's and Evo's and not be far off of my buddies gt350R. lol.

I love Apex-its on the list as my first mod. Mostly likely a 19X8.5 as you suggested. I love the Sm-10's with sick tires.

Your upgrade suggestions are very good, thanks again!
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Old 11-22-2021, 09:05 PM   #13
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You are correct that the 1LE has too many added parts and systems for you to do a package conversion on a non-1LE car. The added heat exchangers are probably the hardest part ... then there are brakes and diff, and the list goes on. The V6 1LE is a good package, but the parts aren't so special as to justify the parts & labor to add the stuff to a standard V6 car.
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Old 11-22-2021, 10:07 PM   #14
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Thanks for the input. Yes, I know the 1le on both the LT and SS very well. The LT V6 1LE comes with so much hardware it would be impossible to upgrade/replicate it. The Rear diff on the LT V6 is just a basic Limited Slip. On the 1LE, it's the Diff from the SS including the cooling.
To be clear, the diff on the regular SS is just a run-of-the-mill mechanical limited slip diff. It may get cooling on the V6 1LE, though. The diff on the SS 1LE is very different: it's the one with the active eLSD and that would be really hard to replicate because of the control module, but the regular SS didn't come with that and neither does any V6. If the V6 1LE gets the same diff as the regular SS, then the entire unit can probably be swapped for an SS rear end. But if there's cooling involved, that could be a PITA.

Even if it's feasible, it's a lot of work. It'd be better to find a real V6 1LE. FWIW, I see two new 2021s on Cars.com right now. They are asking MSRP for them. I'd drive or arrange delivery of one of those if staying in Street class is important at all.

Quote:
I love Apex-its on the list as my first mod. Mostly likely a 19X8.5 as you suggested. I love the Sm-10's with sick tires.

Your upgrade suggestions are very good, thanks again!
Keep in mind that if you don't have to follow SCCA Street class rules, then you can get much wider wheels and tires than 8.5. The other mods I mentioned in post #6 will help a lot, too, and you certainly don't have to think about upgrading to V6 1LE specs. In stock form, I don't think it will be faster on a typical autocross course than stock S000's, E36/46 M3's and Evo's on similar tires, and it won't be close to a GT350. But with the mods I listed in post #6 it would be.
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