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Old 09-17-2021, 10:48 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
Still doesn't explain why it's more prudent to cancel it instead of selling another 5-10k units, making pure profit having development costs already recouped.
One of the articles I read stated that this engine has a taller blower for the supercharger and made the ZR1 unable to be sold in Europe. So, maybe they don't want to keep putting it into vehicles that would have similar restrictions?
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Old 09-17-2021, 11:43 AM   #16
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The LT-6 will replace it with 1200hp.
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Old 09-17-2021, 12:00 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by ember1205 View Post
One of the articles I read stated that this engine has a taller blower for the supercharger and made the ZR1 unable to be sold in Europe. So, maybe they don't want to keep putting it into vehicles that would have similar restrictions?
They considered the LT5 for the CT5-V Blackwing but there were visibility issues
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Old 09-17-2021, 12:52 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
Still doesn't explain why it's more prudent to cancel it instead of selling another 5-10k units, making pure profit having development costs already recouped.
Read my post again. It was NEVER planned to be in anything other than the ZR1.

And I'm not quite sure where you are getting "another 5 - 10K units". In what? Camaro? Not even close. Again, as posted it's a $30,000 PREMIUM over the LT4 in a Corvette. GM has already priced it. So a $60,000 ZL1 just came out at $90,000. You think GM would sell 5 to 10,000 $90,000 Camaros when they can't even sell 30,000 Camaros a year right now?

And to say, "well the business case paid off the development cost so now it's "free" for a Camaro" sounds an awful lot like "free" education and healthcare. Just not how it works.

Love your optimism, though.

GM can do whatever it wants. It can give away Camaros if it wants to.

But an LT5 in a Camaro is a crap ton of work. It's not just a slap it in there activity. The Blackwing LT4 is a lot easier. At a minimum you need a new hood and cooling would be another major concern.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:12 PM   #19
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Where are you getting this $30000 extra math? The ZL1 with an LT5 is not equivalent to the package upgrades you get when adding an LT4 to the Stingray.
Look at the crate engine msrps. LT5 is $5k more than an LT4. And that isn't GM's true cost.

Look at Dodge: A hellcat Challenger starts at $61K with 700+hp. $15k more than a 392. Oh and an HC crate is $16k.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:22 PM   #20
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Perhaps some day they'll offer the LT5 as a crate engine.
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Old 09-17-2021, 01:32 PM   #21
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Read my post again. It was NEVER planned to be in anything other than the ZR1.

And I'm not quite sure where you are getting "another 5 - 10K units". In what? Camaro? Not even close. Again, as posted it's a $30,000 PREMIUM over the LT4 in a Corvette. GM has already priced it. So a $60,000 ZL1 just came out at $90,000. You think GM would sell 5 to 10,000 $90,000 Camaros when they can't even sell 30,000 Camaros a year right now?

And to say, "well the business case paid off the development cost so now it's "free" for a Camaro" sounds an awful lot like "free" education and healthcare. Just not how it works.

Love your optimism, though.

GM can do whatever it wants. It can give away Camaros if it wants to.

But an LT5 in a Camaro is a crap ton of work. It's not just a slap it in there activity. The Blackwing LT4 is a lot easier. At a minimum you need a new hood and cooling would be another major concern.
The $30k upcharge for the ZR1 package covers more than just the LT5. As has been mentioned already, the ACTUAL cost different from an LT4 to an LT5 is $5k-$7k based on the cost of the engines as crate engines. That $90 million figure you stated is inclusive a LOT more than the engine. The engine portion of that number is probably a lot closer to $15 million.

No, selling additional units once the development costs are paid off does not amount to "free money" because there are still all of the other costs (parts, labor, shipping, etc.).
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Old 09-17-2021, 09:09 PM   #22
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Okay, I admit to being flippant with regard to additional costs and thus wrong, it obviously isn't as "free" as in, say, microprocessors that are drop-in replacements for an older model.

Still finding it difficult to believe there was no good sales opportunity after recouping engine development costs, but maybe those ancillary costs would've been too significant. A special, max power "goodbye ICE Camaro" edition would definitely sell several thousand units, simply because it'd be an almost guaranteed future classic.
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Old 09-19-2021, 08:46 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by arpad_m View Post
Okay, I admit to being flippant with regard to additional costs and thus wrong, it obviously isn't as "free" as in, say, microprocessors that are drop-in replacements for an older model.

Still finding it difficult to believe there was no good sales opportunity after recouping engine development costs, but maybe those ancillary costs would've been too significant. A special, max power "goodbye ICE Camaro" edition would definitely sell several thousand units, simply because it'd be an almost guaranteed future classic.
What I was always told when I worked there by the folks that did it was if it shares exactly the same block it's a good starting point. That means that within the engine bay the base engine packages. So the Blackwing LT4 will likely slip right in and the 18 HP would "likely" require very little work to cool it etc.

That being said, what that engine will require is a unique calibration for the Camaro. It doesn't work in a car with different characteristics. The work would not be huge, but it would be required. Normally a new engine comes off of the dyno with a 50% calibration and by the time they are running IVER units it starts at 65%. So at a minimum, GM would have a good head start.

Now comes the tricky part. If the LT5 creates more power than the driveline has been validated for in a Camaro, that's a ton more work. Further, the LT5 required a new hood for the Corvette (another reason why there is a cost penalty for the engine in a ZR1). Even if you did a new SMC hood the tooling bill has 2 commas in it. Steel hood? Probably several millions in tooling. But for that volume, likely composite.

And does the extra 100 HP cool with a Camaro radiator? My guess is no and that's even more work. Any new cooling parts need tooling and validation.

I could go on and on, but it is just not as easy as you or I might do in our garage. All the testing GM would have to do would drive costs way up.

This one is just not a plug and play. Even if they said "go" today, my guess is it's a 2 year program at the shortest.

So basically, the question GM has answered for us is this: "is there money to be made if I put the LT5 in a Camaro". Dropping the engine would suggest that answer is NO.

And I'll bet you good money there are people within GM that wanted to do this simply for the sport of it, knowing it was possible. But, sadly these days, it seems if it isn't Cadillac or EV related, it gets no investment.
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Old 09-19-2021, 09:54 AM   #24
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https://www.motortrend.com/news/chev...v-sedan-rumor/ Why would you do this with this floating around.
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Old 09-19-2021, 03:00 PM   #25
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What I was always told when I worked there by the folks that did it was if it shares exactly the same block it's a good starting point. That means that within the engine bay the base engine packages. So the Blackwing LT4 will likely slip right in and the 18 HP would "likely" require very little work to cool it etc.

That being said, what that engine will require is a unique calibration for the Camaro. It doesn't work in a car with different characteristics. The work would not be huge, but it would be required. Normally a new engine comes off of the dyno with a 50% calibration and by the time they are running IVER units it starts at 65%. So at a minimum, GM would have a good head start.

Now comes the tricky part. If the LT5 creates more power than the driveline has been validated for in a Camaro, that's a ton more work. Further, the LT5 required a new hood for the Corvette (another reason why there is a cost penalty for the engine in a ZR1). Even if you did a new SMC hood the tooling bill has 2 commas in it. Steel hood? Probably several millions in tooling. But for that volume, likely composite.

And does the extra 100 HP cool with a Camaro radiator? My guess is no and that's even more work. Any new cooling parts need tooling and validation.

I could go on and on, but it is just not as easy as you or I might do in our garage. All the testing GM would have to do would drive costs way up.

This one is just not a plug and play. Even if they said "go" today, my guess is it's a 2 year program at the shortest.

So basically, the question GM has answered for us is this: "is there money to be made if I put the LT5 in a Camaro". Dropping the engine would suggest that answer is NO.

And I'll bet you good money there are people within GM that wanted to do this simply for the sport of it, knowing it was possible. But, sadly these days, it seems if it isn't Cadillac or EV related, it gets no investment.
All that being said would it be less expensive to put the same beefed up drivetrain (engine not included of course) in all of the same model (Camaro, Corvette, Cadillac…)? Due to the high cost of tooling, manufacturing and validation.
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Old 09-19-2021, 03:19 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Number 3 View Post
What I was always told when I worked there by the folks that did it was if it shares exactly the same block it's a good starting point. That means that within the engine bay the base engine packages. So the Blackwing LT4 will likely slip right in and the 18 HP would "likely" require very little work to cool it etc.

That being said, what that engine will require is a unique calibration for the Camaro. It doesn't work in a car with different characteristics. The work would not be huge, but it would be required. Normally a new engine comes off of the dyno with a 50% calibration and by the time they are running IVER units it starts at 65%. So at a minimum, GM would have a good head start.

Now comes the tricky part. If the LT5 creates more power than the driveline has been validated for in a Camaro, that's a ton more work. Further, the LT5 required a new hood for the Corvette (another reason why there is a cost penalty for the engine in a ZR1). Even if you did a new SMC hood the tooling bill has 2 commas in it. Steel hood? Probably several millions in tooling. But for that volume, likely composite.

And does the extra 100 HP cool with a Camaro radiator? My guess is no and that's even more work. Any new cooling parts need tooling and validation.

I could go on and on, but it is just not as easy as you or I might do in our garage. All the testing GM would have to do would drive costs way up.

This one is just not a plug and play. Even if they said "go" today, my guess is it's a 2 year program at the shortest.

So basically, the question GM has answered for us is this: "is there money to be made if I put the LT5 in a Camaro". Dropping the engine would suggest that answer is NO.

And I'll bet you good money there are people within GM that wanted to do this simply for the sport of it, knowing it was possible. But, sadly these days, it seems if it isn't Cadillac or EV related, it gets no investment.
Thank you for these details, Number 3, I appreciate your time and thought you invested in the response. This was very likely considered indeed and then the idea scrapped, which is unfortunate to us potential buyers.

I would think the design team must have left enough headroom in the ZL1 to accommodate an extra 100 crank horsepower, aftermarket modders don't seem to be abandoning the platform due to cooling or any other issues after all. That said, I do understand it's one thing to upgrade your own car, dealing with whatever comes up, and a whole another to commit to a warrantable upgraded design.
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Old 09-19-2021, 08:16 PM   #27
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All that being said would it be less expensive to put the same beefed up drivetrain (engine not included of course) in all of the same model (Camaro, Corvette, Cadillac…)? Due to the high cost of tooling, manufacturing and validation.
Corvette is just a different animal even in C7 guise.

Now to make Alpha and Alpha 2 set up for the LT5? They could have but my guess is visibility issues with the taller hood would be a big deal.

Could have planned for it, but likely GM felt the limitations weren’t worth making CT5 and Camaro able to handle the 100 HP.

And then you’d have to make the decision that there is no LT4 and volumes and cost come into play.
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