[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

at this point i need to be convinced that EVs are actually going to be environmentally efficient.not only are rare earth metals difficult to obtain,but what about our power grid when half the nation plugs in after work at 530 p.m. and wants to watch TV and run the air conditioner or heater in their houses at the same time.electricity needs to come from some type of powerplant and suffers parasitic losses when transmitted through power lines to the individuals house and charger.the transportation company i used to work for had over 200 hydrogen powered tractor trailers hauling freight with no difficulties.45 minute refueling time which is not worse than EV charging time.are you certain that we are not taking another false trail in our quest for clean energy?BTW i am not an electric car hater as such.if manufacturers could produce a solar panel like the glass roof on certain car models that would extend driving range and lessen the need to charge an EV daily it would go a long ways towards making EVs more practical.

I am not as up to speed on this as I could be, but a lot of work is being done to address the grid in the US and in Europe. We have an energy group in my company (I’m in the automotive consulting group) and they are definitely very much up to speed on grid development. There’s a lot going on there that I don’t totally understand, so I’m not gonna flex on this site, other than to say there’s stuff going on.

[396ssrat]

I'd love to have heard the backroom deal that was made between Barra and the federal government prior to the "Electric vehicle Mandate".

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by 396ssrat

I'd love to have heard the backroom deal that was made between Barra and the federal government prior to the "Electric vehicle Mandate".

The Federal government has an electric vehicle mandate? Do you have details?

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

The Federal government has an electric vehicle mandate? Do you have details?

Just because the public doesn’t know doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It would surprise me if there wasn’t some kind of back door agreement with Bo Jiden.

Like I said, Mary’s a shill for his ilk.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

For a driving enthusiast, not much but us enthusiasts represent a very small portion of the market. The majority of buyers are hung up on the tech, driving is a chore to them. So, if they find a particular car has other ways to entertain and enhance the driving experience then it becomes desirable.

I do have to ask what reasonable basis exists for letting those who already don't like to drive . . . to distance themselves even further from their responsibilities behind the wheel. That Tesla interior picture could be the poster-boy picture for encouraging that sort of attitude.

One pedal driving does not mean the car does not have traditional a brake pedal. It is just a setting the driver can configure. You can set the level of regen braking from the electric motors such that the car actual slows down without the use of friction brakes. Once you get used to this it becomes a little game of timing your release and pressure on the accelerator such that you never even have to apply the friction brakes when coming to a stop. Brake Hold is another setting you can configure whether you want to sit with your foot on the brake or have the car apply brake hold. If you don't like it then you can turn those settings off and it will work more like a traditional ICE based vehicle. The side benefit here is you barely use the friction brakes around town, brake pads can literally last the life of the car. You also get the benefit of extremely low brake dust, which is another thing the eco folks don't want spewing into the air.

Incidental deceleration on closed throttle is one thing. Artificially exaggerating it, something else entirely. Playing with "settings" in advance to make that exaggeration happen is no substitute for brake pedal modulation in real time.

Lack of friction brake use can result in brake pads physically deteriorating long before they wear out. The undercar repair industry is already aware of this. Something to keep in mind . . .


Norm

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Just because the public doesn’t know doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It would surprise me if there wasn’t some kind of back door agreement with Bo Jiden.

Like I said, Mary’s a shill for his ilk.

Ahhhhh back to non existent conspiracy theories.

Mary Barra works for stock holders and answers to the of which she is chairman. If it isn’t wildly profitable it doesn’t matter what President Biden wants.

[Norm Peterson]

I realize you weren't replying to me with this, but

Originally Posted by raptor5244

True, in fact some of these features require a monthly subscription.

Total non-starter here. I can't think of anything I'd care to buy that I wasn't buying outright with no subscription or rental strings attached.

As for the obsolescence, I totally agree but a few things come to mind. When you buy a traditional ICE based vehicle, you get what you get in that model year and that it pretty much it. You may doing your own mods and such but for the most part you are stuck with the systems and software it came with.

Exactly. Where the car I have a year or two from now is exactly the same car it was when I bought it a couple of years ago. Except for any modifications I might make or have made to it.

Think of it this way - if a car was inherently attractive enough for me to spend $$$$$ to get, it would have been attractive enough for me to see it still being exactly as attractive several years later. That doesn't mean I wouldn't make any of my usual performance mods, but it does mean that I'd have little need for mfr-pushed updates.

It's bad enough that Win10 forces updates on you. At least one of those updates cost me a certain spreadsheet functionality that I had been using, which essentially turned a supposed 'system upgrade' into a clear 'downgrade'. Cost me quite a bit of effort to come up with a work-around, that only amounted to "running in place".

The cars come with a 4 year 50,000 miles bumper-to-bumper warranty and 8 year/100,000 mile coverage on the powertrain and battery. For me, I don't usually keep cars that long but yes, the car will probably start to feel like an iPhone 5 at some point. It will still drive well, but the tech will start to look dated at some point for sure.

Just so you know, we have always managed to pick cars that we we still enjoyed driving at least 8 years out. Far past that in most cases - to the nearest whole year for the cars we no longer own, 8, 26, 10, 19, 19, and 9 years. Nothing about those three really long-term cars ever felt substandard, inadequate, or no longer fun to drive in the last year that we owned them.


Norm

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

It is a point and shoot type of car, super smooth, listen to the awesome sound system and let autopilot drive if you fell lazy on the highway. The Camaro or any other ICE based car with a manual, top down, and exhaust for when you are in the mood.

This is why I truly enjoy participating in these kinds of threads. Many times it makes me consciously realize things about myself that had only been subconscious suspicions previously.

Long story short, I'm absolutely not a 'point and shoot' kind of driver and never have been. So a point and shoot kind of car just isn't going to be a good fit for me no matter how good the 'shoot' part of the equation might be.


I guess I'm always in the mood for a drive in a MT car where it's all on me to drive as smoothly as I can at whatever level of "enthusiasm" might strike me at any given moment . . . while still staying in a relaxed frame of mind. I even find track day sessions to be relaxing rather than stressful.


Norm

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

Just because the public doesn’t know doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

It would surprise me if there wasn’t some kind of back door agreement with Bo Jiden.

Like I said, Mary’s a shill for his ilk.

The shark has been jumped.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

I do have to ask what reasonable basis exists for letting those who already don't like to drive . . . to distance themselves even further from their responsibilities behind the wheel. That Tesla interior picture could be the poster-boy picture for encouraging that sort of attitude.



Incidental deceleration on closed throttle is one thing. Artificially exaggerating it, something else entirely. Playing with "settings" in advance to make that exaggeration happen is no substitute for brake pedal modulation in real time.

Lack of friction brake use can result in brake pads physically deteriorating long before they wear out. The undercar repair industry is already aware of this. Something to keep in mind . . .


Norm

The thing with EVs is, NOT doing it is the unnatural part. Since electric motors run in reverse are generators, taking your foot off the accelerator allows the motor to run in reverse as a generator. The energy captured goes into the battery. The regen braking kicks in, and since the motor is being a generator at the time, there is nothing to restrict the operation of the regen braking.

In our Volt, you can one-foot drive just short of a complete stop. GM built in a creep mode that simulates creep in a gasoline engine AT car, simply because they knew customers are used to that. Otherwise we would probably be able to one-foot drive to a stop.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by Norm Peterson

This is why I truly enjoy participating in these kinds of threads. Many times it makes me consciously realize things about myself that had only been subconscious suspicions previously.

Long story short, I'm absolutely not a 'point and shoot' kind of driver and never have been. So a point and shoot kind of car just isn't going to be a good fit for me no matter how good the 'shoot' part of the equation might be.


I guess I'm always in the mood for a drive in a MT car where it's all on me to drive as smoothly as I can at whatever level of "enthusiasm" might strike me at any given moment . . . while still staying in a relaxed frame of mind. I even find track day sessions to be relaxing rather than stressful.


Norm

Well said.

[Norm Peterson]

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

A lot. But that’s what’s making the domestic 3 profitable.

Wish I knew how to consider that. Legitimate loophole? End run around the spirit of CO2 reduction? That it's OK to cut a large market segment some slack against mandates but not OK to extend the same courtesy to other much smaller segments (I think aftermarket performance fits in here)?


Norm

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Ahhhhh back to non existent conspiracy theories.

Mary Barra works for stock holders and answers to the of which she is chairman. It isn’t wildly profitable it doesn’t matter what President Biden wants.

Not surprised with your comment. You’re a shill for her.

[90503]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

The change from horse to automobile was a natural progression in technology.

The change from gasoline to electric is not. I have yet to see any evidence that electric cars have a lower environmental impact that gasoline cars. Just like the Paris Accords, this is nothing more than political grandstanding that will produce no real world results. CO2 production in the US is declining year over year. Meanwhile, China is in the process of tripling it’s number of coal power plants.

These types of practical arguments likely won't get much attention. It is too inconvenient to have to deal with them, and just not the right tone. Blind acceptance of EVs and their manufacture as saving the planet is the unquestionable route. Whatever the fallout or consequences, particularly to the average American, the world bureaucratic policy makers (Paris Accords, for instance) and their compliant corporate boardrooms and media can't be bothered with our petty concerns or any counter-points to what they have deemed is best for us.

The horse is already out of the barn in more ways than one. In time, decades perhaps, the transition to EVS from ICE will be similar to the eco-mandated switch from paper to plastic bags. Well intentioned, but blindly required in spite of the proliferation of plastics all through the world's oceans. The ICE to EV transition will be a paper-to-plastic eco-disaster of vastly greater proportions. True, the air has no borders, but the policy makers do. So called emerging economies, like China, if you can believe that one, all get a free pass to pollute and do nothing similar to the US.

The horrors of strip mining and human exploitation for all these rare-earth materials might prove embarrassing to the Chinese and others, so it is down-played or ignored. Or given a cursory statement of "we are working on that".

The "science" of global-warming has become the bureaucratic and political weapon of picking and choosing economic winners and losers with no questions allowed. Good luck.