[Deputy Dog]

Originally Posted by mdhopt36

I'm 6 feet tall, and my head is fairly low to the door. Maybe instead of raising the height of the ceiling/cab, they could lower the door height a smidge? Be great if you could lay your arm on a door with the window down comfortably !

My gripe, GM still messing around with a turbo'd I4. Positively stupid.

And for buying another, I would go for the front end on a V6 RS before I sat in a '19 SS.
19 SS is a jack-o-lantern with no teeth. Hideous.

V6 front end looks like blue whale.


http://dinoanimals.com/animals/blue-...argest-animal/

[Mighty Mouce]

Want to get someones attention?....advertise, advertise advertise...thats what sells product. I learned that in college the first day in Graphic Art advertising. Those heading up Chevy have forgotten about basics or are just so arrogant to think the Camaro name will sell itself all while forgetting the Millennial generation is a whole different animal raised strapped into a baby seat of a Honda Civic.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouce

Want to get someones attention?....advertise, advertise advertise...thats what sells product. I learned that in college the first day in Graphic Art advertising. Those heading up Chevy have forgotten about basics or are just so arrogant to think the Camaro name will sell itself all while forgetting the Millennial generation is a whole different animal raised strapped into a baby seat of a Honda Civic.

LOL

There are people with years of experience and knowledge on this very topic. It’s what they do for a living. It’s backed up by teams of data.

They also pay 100s of millions to ad agencies who are also EXPERT in this very topic.

If GM thought they could be profitable with more advertising they would do it.

Sorry but I know people who know this and in this case you are not correct.

Won’t argue they might sell a few more cars but if they sold 1,000 more Camaros at a couple let’s assume $5,000 (that would be HUGE) profit that’s $5,000,000 more profit. Making a commercial would cost that much and then air time on top would make this proposition a huge money loser. Your theory only works if they could sell 10s of thousands more cars and GM knows a TV commercial won’t do that.

[samurai]

Someone posted in the last topic some numbers that the avarage asking price of the Camaro is multiple thousands dollars higher than on the mustang. Didn't Al or some other high guy at Chevy recently said that the V8 Camaro is doing very well and only the lowend models need a push - what basically was the reason for the turbo 1LE.


We will see how the refresh will go since it got a nice price drop. But at least we know that atm two next generation Camaros are in the work.

[Mr Carrots]

Originally Posted by mdhopt36

I'm 6 feet tall, and my head is fairly low to the door. Maybe instead of raising the height of the ceiling/cab, they could lower the door height a smidge? Be great if you could lay your arm on a door with the window down comfortably !

My gripe, GM still messing around with a turbo'd I4. Positively stupid.

And for buying another, I would go for the front end on a V6 RS before I sat in a '19 SS.
19 SS is a jack-o-lantern with no teeth. Hideous.

Thank Obama and CAFE for the 4 cylinders, GM had no way of knowing who would win in 2016 so couldn't gamble on ignoring the insane EPA targets of the time

Hopefully these poor sales mean more incentives next month when I finally get my 19

[FreBMX]

Originally Posted by mdhopt36

I'm 6 feet tall, and my head is fairly low to the door. Maybe instead of raising the height of the ceiling/cab, they could lower the door height a smidge? Be great if you could lay your arm on a door with the window down comfortably !

My gripe, GM still messing around with a turbo'd I4. Positively stupid.

And for buying another, I would go for the front end on a V6 RS before I sat in a '19 SS.
19 SS is a jack-o-lantern with no teeth. Hideous.

The high belt line is what makes the camaro stand out I think, without that it would look like a family sedan especially with that new ‘19 front.
Sure it’s not practicle, and the visibility sucks, but it’s a passion over mind kind of thing, wouldn’t want it to look any different.
Oh yeah, in Europe we are thankful for the I4, ten times less emission taxes than an ss

[V8 Firebird]

Originally Posted by Mighty Mouce

Want to get someones attention?....advertise, advertise advertise...thats what sells product.

They don't do advertise much for Impala too... they still can against Charger in sales despite different layout.

[Zack46]

Originally Posted by YARBIE 1

Go post negative crap about these badass cars somehwere else, capeesh!!!

[MaskedRacerX]

Originally Posted by Glen e

And I'm not sure what the answer is. It is a shifting demographic and psychographic, that the Camaro just can't current capture in volume. Harley has the same exact problem.

You're right on (with your "not sure"), that complex formula of market, buyers, product, communication - companies spend significant money (see quote below) trying to break that code.

Someone mentioned back seat room and visibility, and invariably someone says, not an issue, or overblown, and sure, your personal experience may be just that, but are those [my perspective is also they're mostly inconsequential] issues, incremental contributors to the equation? Don't know - GM marketing may know, but the product is past the design phase, and it's not like they'd ever address it directly.

I think there's a little mind share momentum too, where sales create sales, you see model X more than model Y, it's in your head when you're shopping - and most buyers don't factor in the idea of Rarer == Better. Regardless of how a product got ahead, it's hard to topple that lead when the real compelling reason to buy Y isn't a concern for 90% of owners.

Certainly, some of us make the decision to buy, being pretty well educated about the product - I'm a good example of assessing the product thoroughly, and making an informed decision that has _zero_ to do with the manufacturer (or implied baggage), I bought a GT convertible in '15, I'm looking to buy a ZL1 convertible this year.

Originally Posted by Number 3

There are people with years of experience and knowledge on this very topic. It’s what they do for a living. It’s backed up by teams of data.

They also pay 100s of millions to ad agencies who are also EXPERT in this very topic. If GM thought they could be profitable with more advertising they would do it. Sorry but I know people who know this and in this case you are not correct.

[DaveC113]

It's only owners who say the visibility "isn't that bad" but the truth is it keeps people from buying the car. Read any review and it's an issue, with many going so far as to say it would factor into their decision to choose a different car despite the Camaro being a better performing car.

It's the #1 thing I'd change about my car if I could.

[Number 3]

The concern I have is whenever we discuss this is we get a ton of people that say "you get used to it" or "if you just adjust your mirrors correctly" or "there is NO problem", those same people don't want to address that there are people that don't care as much about the performance or the "American Muscle" or "Bad Ass Styling". They simply aren't going to buy a car they have learn or adapt to. If it doesn't meet their basic expectations, they simply won't buy. And that's a big reason why so many people are abandoning Sedans and going to SUVs and CUVs. Those expectations are changing, quickly and drastically.

Also if you are a fan enough of the car to come on this site and argue "visibility is not a problem" or "I adjusted my mirrors and it's fine" then you probably aren't able to put yourself in the shoes of a man or woman going into a Chevy dealer and just checking out cars and trucks and seeing what is available.

As I've said all along, Chevy gave us the best Camaro EVER. It's just not the best coupe ever and that's part of the sales issue.

Go back and read the last 5 years of posts on the things that were most important to people on this site.

Weigh less than a Mustang
Beat a Mustang at everything
MOHR of the Gen5

We got all of that and more.

If you are an individual that knows or cares very little about the benefits of the Alpha architecture and your judgment criteria are:

Easy to get in and out of
Easy to see out of
Easy to get in the back seat
Easy to get things in an out of the trunk

The Camaro simply does not excel at any of these yet it's the reason SOME people do pick a car.

I expect the Camaro to be around. GM was very profitable with the Corvette at volumes even lower that the 4,000 or so per month the Camaro is selling. But GM will be profitable and that means the car will be constructed with lower investment choices (big reason whey the Corvette is SMC, RIM rather than steel) and higher prices. But GM has a ways to go here because it seems they are putting attention in to the 4 cylinder and V6 variants so that tells me GM wants the volumes a bit higher.

GM is very well along on what the Gen7 Camaro will be. And only because it has been looked at years ago, it is possible to do a 2+2 off of the Corvette architecture. So it is entirely possible that the NG Camaro actually is the Corvette and the Corvette simply moves up a notch with the mid engine. Think of whether you feel GM can actually sell 30,000 or more mid engine cars and fill Bowling Green. If not, then what else goes in that plant.

Because as much as I'd like a more usable Camaro to suit my tastes, that car might outsell the Mustang, but it still is going into a market that will continue to decrease over time. And that isn't a good place to invest your money. Would any of you invest your hard earned money in something that doesn't grow?

Still a couple years away, but we shall see.

[Aragorn]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The concern I have is whenever we discuss this is we get a ton of people that say "you get used to it" or "if you just adjust your mirrors correctly" or "there is NO problem", those same people don't want to address that there are people that don't care as much about the performance or the "American Muscle" or "Bad Ass Styling". They simply aren't going to buy a car they have learn or adapt to. If it doesn't meet their basic expectations, they simply won't buy. And that's a big reason why so many people are abandoning Sedans and going to SUVs and CUVs. Those expectations are changing, quickly and drastically.

Also if you are a fan enough of the car to come on this site and argue "visibility is not a problem" or "I adjusted my mirrors and it's fine" then you probably aren't able to put yourself in the shoes of a man or woman going into a Chevy dealer and just checking out cars and trucks and seeing what is available.

As I've said all along, Chevy gave us the best Camaro EVER. It's just not the best coupe ever and that's part of the sales issue.

Go back and read the last 5 years of posts on the things that were most important to people on this site.

Weigh less than a Mustang
Beat a Mustang at everything
MOHR of the Gen5

We got all of that and more.

If you are an individual that knows or cares very little about the benefits of the Alpha architecture and your judgment criteria are:

Easy to get in and out of
Easy to see out of
Easy to get in the back seat
Easy to get things in an out of the trunk

The Camaro simply does not excel at any of these yet it's the reason SOME people do pick a car.

I expect the Camaro to be around. GM was very profitable with the Corvette at volumes even lower that the 4,000 or so per month the Camaro is selling. But GM will be profitable and that means the car will be constructed with lower investment choices (big reason whey the Corvette is SMC, RIM rather than steel) and higher prices. But GM has a ways to go here because it seems they are putting attention in to the 4 cylinder and V6 variants so that tells me GM wants the volumes a bit higher.

GM is very well along on what the Gen7 Camaro will be. And only because it has been looked at years ago, it is possible to do a 2+2 off of the Corvette architecture. So it is entirely possible that the NG Camaro actually is the Corvette and the Corvette simply moves up a notch with the mid engine. Think of whether you feel GM can actually sell 30,000 or more mid engine cars and fill Bowling Green. If not, then what else goes in that plant.

Because as much as I'd like a more usable Camaro to suit my tastes, that car might outsell the Mustang, but it still is going into a market that will continue to decrease over time. And that isn't a good place to invest your money. Would any of you invest your hard earned money in something that doesn't grow?

Still a couple years away, but we shall see.

This
I test drove a 2017 ss m6 two weeks ago and it was my first time in a Camaro ever. My first impression was of it being dark, cavernous, claustrophobic and I can definitely see go this is an issue for some! For me it was cool in a weird kind of way though, and thought that it might feel the same being in a fighter jet cockpit. Definitely a driver’s car.

[HighIron]

Originally Posted by Aragorn

Definitely a driver’s car.

That's the condensed crux of it. This was made clear to me a few weeks ago when I drove a new Challenger for the first time...rented one for 5 days a few weeks ago. A reasonably enjoyable car but definitely more of a cruiser car than a driver's car, and I can see why they would be popular with a broader swath of people than with the Camaro.

I didn't need to be "sold" on the Camaro, having already been smitten by it's aesthetics and technical excellence. To others, those two attributes are merely plusses in a long list of plusses an minuses.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

The concern I have is whenever we discuss this is we get a ton of people that say "you get used to it" or "if you just adjust your mirrors correctly" or "there is NO problem", those same people don't want to address that there are people that don't care as much about the performance or the "American Muscle" or "Bad Ass Styling". They simply aren't going to buy a car they have learn or adapt to. If it doesn't meet their basic expectations, they simply won't buy. And that's a big reason why so many people are abandoning Sedans and going to SUVs and CUVs. Those expectations are changing, quickly and drastically.

Also if you are a fan enough of the car to come on this site and argue "visibility is not a problem" or "I adjusted my mirrors and it's fine" then you probably aren't able to put yourself in the shoes of a man or woman going into a Chevy dealer and just checking out cars and trucks and seeing what is available.

As I've said all along, Chevy gave us the best Camaro EVER. It's just not the best coupe ever and that's part of the sales issue.

Go back and read the last 5 years of posts on the things that were most important to people on this site.

Weigh less than a Mustang
Beat a Mustang at everything
MOHR of the Gen5

We got all of that and more.

If you are an individual that knows or cares very little about the benefits of the Alpha architecture and your judgment criteria are:

Easy to get in and out of
Easy to see out of
Easy to get in the back seat
Easy to get things in an out of the trunk

The Camaro simply does not excel at any of these yet it's the reason SOME people do pick a car.

I expect the Camaro to be around. GM was very profitable with the Corvette at volumes even lower that the 4,000 or so per month the Camaro is selling. But GM will be profitable and that means the car will be constructed with lower investment choices (big reason whey the Corvette is SMC, RIM rather than steel) and higher prices. But GM has a ways to go here because it seems they are putting attention in to the 4 cylinder and V6 variants so that tells me GM wants the volumes a bit higher.

GM is very well along on what the Gen7 Camaro will be. And only because it has been looked at years ago, it is possible to do a 2+2 off of the Corvette architecture. So it is entirely possible that the NG Camaro actually is the Corvette and the Corvette simply moves up a notch with the mid engine. Think of whether you feel GM can actually sell 30,000 or more mid engine cars and fill Bowling Green. If not, then what else goes in that plant.

Because as much as I'd like a more usable Camaro to suit my tastes, that car might outsell the Mustang, but it still is going into a market that will continue to decrease over time. And that isn't a good place to invest your money. Would any of you invest your hard earned money in something that doesn't grow?

Still a couple years away, but we shall see.

This is a very insightful comment. I am one of those people who typically come back with advice to adjust mirrors (and get the SBZA/LCA/RCTA) to address the visibility concern and I tend to downplay it as it's inconsequential to me, but that doesn't mean I don't understand what people probably feel. It indeed is a cockpit-like experience overall.

However.

#1
The Camaro is a sports car, and its high beltline, slit-like windows and low riding position are some of its trademark attributes that give it an absolutely amazing, unique exterior look and feel. Compromises were obviously made to achieve this.

I would be glad if Chevy lowered the beltline by 1" and raised the roof by 1" in gen 7, a larger trunk opening would also be very helpful... but I think giving the majority what they expect in terms of getting into and out of the car, visibility, back seats, trunk capacity is either impossible or would dilute the Camaro into a family sedan-like offering, nearly indistinguishable from the rest. I mean, which of you, apart from total geeks, could even tell one generic SUV from the other with all badging removed?

So my first point is that a balance is difficult to find, and shifting it would likely render the car un-Camaro.

#2
The Camaro is a sports car, and I don't think anybody really needs it. We do try to shoehorn it into other roles, I have 3 kids who love filling the rest of the space while I drive, I can get groceries if needed, but at the end of the day, it is not what this car is for. Being a sports car, it comes with compromises in these 4 very areas, and that's okay with some and less okay with an increasing number of people.

The Charger or the Accord or even the Kia Stinger is a much better fit for those that value or require these things but still want to have a bit of exhilaration time to time, and I'm not sure this could or even should be resolved.

#3
The Camaro is a sports car, while the market appears to be shifting away from the muscle and sports car and towards SUV's on the one hand and generic, autonomous hybrid/electric vehicles on the other. My hope is that the vast majority of younger people who don't want to drive in the first place would be served by autonomous cars and there remains a niche for car enthusiasts to enjoy. Heck, giving people who can't drive get a self-driving vehicle seems to be a win-win---they get to sip their lattes and swipe away on their phones all the time, and we get to enjoy much more predictable traffic patterns and less congestion.