[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Dude, all Im saying, like shaffe, is that you seem to allude to some kind of high ceiling the OHV still has, and within business-case sense for the current and future automotive industry; to which I do not see.

The Bullitt is a mass-production car like the Mustang GT... My comments are towards mass-production cars. What meant by “supercar/halo-car or specialty/performance shop car” was to stray from the padded budgets for cars such as the Ford GT and the ZR1 or aftermarket cars like Roush and Hennessey. So, a Ford Mustang GT or Chevy Camaro SS.

Answer my question: What would you do to the LT1?

Agreed.

Blaq we are not trying to say that the OHV design is done and finished just that there might not be much left in NA. Same is going to apply to DOHC engines most likely.

Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in and make sure I get this somewhat right . The "problem" with OHV is you need displacement to make more power. The problem is that large displacement engines it is getting harder to pass cold start emissions. I am sure they can make some tweaks and do some others things and make an "LT2" that has more power than the LT1. I just don't know how much more is all we are saying. I think around 500 is probably going to be the limit because of emissions regulations. All the same is going to apply to DOHC engines as well,

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

The difference between you and this 2015 M6G post is that the gen6 Camaro SS proved itself to be a half second quicker than the 15-17 GT.

The 18 GT* being 3-tenths quicker? Not so much.
Attachment 960801
* GT, A10, PP, Michelin PS, 3.55 in drag race mode

LOL, that dude is a joke. He wouldn't admit a Camaro is faster if it beat a Mustang by half a second after giving the Mustang a 2 car length start. He's the only person on the planet delusional enough to actually believe that the 15-17 GTs were just as fast as the 6th Gen SS.

Originally Posted by newmoon

2018 Mustang GT
MotorTrend - 12.1 118.8 mph.
HotRod - 11:86 119.05 mph.
Cars.com - 11.90s no mph given.

I'll be waiting for any review which shows the SS under 3-tenth of these times. The SS has had 3 full years to get this done.

So you're saying that the completely re-designed 2018 GT with a completely new 3rd Gen Coyote engine and the A10 trans is faster than the unchanged SS that came out in 2016? Wow. I mean, I'm glad that Ford focused on beating the SS for 2 years and had to re-do the entire car to accomplish their goal. Good for them.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Mountain

Im talking DOHC. Not the Coyote. The Coyote has little more than the Bullitt 5.0L. The Coyote is limited in bore size. Intake, cam specs, VVT/tune and exhaust are about it for THAT engine. Compression is pretty much there. I can say that Ford tends to leave a lot on the table as far as tune (spark/AFR) but are probably getting close in the Bullitt.

Max LT1 6.2L NA vs max Coyote Gen3 5.0L NA (both OEM offerings), the Coyote likely has the slight edge, but are close.

2010 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 315 HP ()
2011 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 411 HP
2012 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 411 HP
2013 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 420 HP
2014 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 420 HP
2015 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 435 HP (Finally surpassed the SS after 5 years)

2016 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 435 HP
2017 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 435 HP
2018 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 460 HP (Took a complete removal of an engine that was only 3 years old and a new Coyote engine to surpass the unchanged Camaro)

2019 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 480 HP (I'll be generous and count the Bullitt even tho it is not a general car and carries a premium)

So what in the Hell gives you any evidence that the Coyote has more room than the Camaro. GM has shown that they will leave the output of the Camaro unchanged throughout that entire particular Gen. So because they're keeping true to what they did in the previous Gen, THAT means they're struggling? Who's to say that Ford didn't throw all their cards on the table with the Bullitt and are at their cap? Look what it took to get to 526 HP? Super high compression, 8200 RPMs, an expensive AF CPC engine that was still prone to failures and oil consumption and NVH, and even at that the power didn't come on until after you eclipsed more than half of the RPM. So if you ask me, that Voodoo engine was maxed out. How much more can they push the 5.0 to?

Originally Posted by shaffe

Agreed.

Blaq we are not trying to say that the OHV design is done and finished just that there might not be much left in NA. Same is going to apply to DOHC engines most likely.

Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in and make sure I get this somewhat right . The "problem" with OHV is you need displacement to make more power. The problem is that large displacement engines it is getting harder to pass cold start emissions. I am sure they can make some tweaks and do some others things and make an "LT2" that has more power than the LT1. I just don't know how much more is all we are saying. I think around 500 is probably going to be the limit because of emissions regulations. All the same is going to apply to DOHC engines as well,

The problem with ANY NA engine is that displacement will be needed to make serious power. It isn't an issue specific to OHV or DOHC. It is all across the board. Why do you think they had to add a little more CI to the 3rd Gen Coyote? It was to help them get to the power they needed to beat the SS. Otherwise there would have been no reason to not go up to 5.2 L or more. SO what you're both saying does not hold any weight. I see no evidence that the DOHC engine at 5.0 Liters has any more or less capacity than the 6.2. And again, the SRT8 is making more HP than both of them and I'm not seeing Dodge have any problems with emissions, cold start nonsense, or anything else you guys are talking about.

[Martinjlm]

At some point, debating which NA V8 is better is gonna be like debating which 6AT is better. The world will have moved on beyond NA V8. Not beyond V8, just beyond NA V8. Turbos are here. Electric hybrid boost is here. In order to keep V8 engines in the market, companies are going to have to reduce the displacement and boost them. In some cases they’ll reduce the number of holes and boost them. Boosting could be pressure, electric, or both. Food for thought....EXCEPT for the GT2, all Porsche 911s are turbocharged. Sure, it’s not a V8, but it never was. Ferrari, the poster child of mid displacement high revving NA V8s is now pinning their future on even smaller displacement twin turbo V8s. And they’re also about to add electrification on top of that. BMW, Mercedes, and Audi have reduced their V8’s from 4.8, 4.6L down to 4.0 and 4.4L and twin turbocharged them. Yes, those are all pricey vehicles, but as with most technologies, the trend is working its way down to less pricey brands. Inline 6 turbos and small V8 turbos are coming. And they’ll be pretty nice.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The problem with ANY NA engine is that displacement will be needed to make serious power. It isn't an issue specific to OHV or DOHC. It is all across the board. Why do you think they had to add a little more CI to the 3rd Gen Coyote? It was to help them get to the power they needed to beat the SS. Otherwise there would have been no reason to not go up to 5.2 L or more. SO what you're both saying does not hold any weight. I see no evidence that the DOHC engine at 5.0 Liters has any more or less capacity than the 6.2. And again, the SRT8 is making more HP than both of them and I'm not seeing Dodge have any problems with emissions, cold start nonsense, or anything else you guys are talking about.

Here is every post I made on the topic

Originally Posted by shaffe

The only thing I will disagree with Blaq is that it does seem with EPA and emissions standards I think they have just about taken the NA OHV engine as far as they can. Yeah they can make more power, but can they do it while still meeting emissions standards? team Corvette tried going NA for the Z06, and couldn't make the power they wanted while passing emissions, which is why we have the LT4.

Originally Posted by shaffe

True but IIRC team Corvette was also trying to do that with a new 7.0L I think? Not 100% sure on that. My point wasn't that the LT1 is tapped out, I think there is definitely still room on the table. I just don't know how much more is left though.



I wasn't trying to make this an OHV OHC debate. I was just saying that I think the days of big NA OHV engines are just about done. I think there is still some room left, but I don't know how much they could do. Maybe 500, maybe 525 in the "regular V8" I don't think anything more than that is possible emissions wise. Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in but I believe to start getting that kind of power most likely have to increase displacement and larger displacement has a harder time passing cold start emissions testing.

I could be 100% wrong on that though, but I believe that is the problem Corvette ran into when trying to make an NA power plant for the Z06.

And agian not saying switching to OHC makes it all of a sudden possible. Just I think NA power levels are just about tapped out.

Originally Posted by shaffe

Agreed.

Blaq we are not trying to say that the OHV design is done and finished just that there might not be much left in NA. Same is going to apply to DOHC engines most likely.

Hopefully someone smarter than me can chime in and make sure I get this somewhat right . The "problem" with OHV is you need displacement to make more power. The problem is that large displacement engines it is getting harder to pass cold start emissions. I am sure they can make some tweaks and do some others things and make an "LT2" that has more power than the LT1. I just don't know how much more is all we are saying. I think around 500 is probably going to be the limit because of emissions regulations. All the same is going to apply to DOHC engines as well,

I don't see anywhere in there where I said DOHC won't run into the same problems, or that you will be able to make DOHC make more power than an OHV engine. . In fact I even said that the same problems will effect both engine designs. All I have been saying is that I don't know how much further the NA engine can be pushed to making power that will meet emissions standards. That is all. I was not trying to say DOHC is superior to OHV and won't have any issues going forward. All I was trying to say is I think that the days of big power NA engines is just about over. Now I may have mentioned OHV more because we were talking mostly about the LT engine series.

Yes the Dodge 6.4 is making more HP than the LT1. 30 more HP, it also has more displacement than the LT1. I also said I do not believe the LT1 is tapped out. I said there are things they can do to improve it and make more power. All I have been saying this whole time is I don't know how much more they can push it. I would be shocked if we see something well over HP NA in the future. If we look at the rumored mid engine vette engines, the rumor mill is a DOHC NA application, a Turbo DOHC and possibly a carry over LT1. Cadillac's new hot engine is a turbo DOHC. and as Martin points out below, that is just kind of the way performance is going.

So to recap, I have not said DOHC is superior to OHV and can make more power with no issues. All I have said is that I don't know how much more room they have.

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

At some point, debating which NA V8 is better is gonna be like debating which 6AT is better. The world will have moved on beyond NA V8. Not beyond V8, just beyond NA V8. Turbos are here. Electric hybrid boost is here. In order to keep V8 engines in the market, companies are going to have to reduce the displacement and boost them. In some cases they’ll reduce the number of holes and boost them. Boosting could be pressure, electric, or both. Food for thought....EXCEPT for the GT2, all Porsche 911s are turbocharged. Sure, it’s not a V8, but it never was. Ferrari, the poster child of mid displacement high revving NA V8s is now pinning their future on even smaller displacement twin turbo V8s. And they’re also about to add electrification on top of that. BMW, Mercedes, and Audi have reduced their V8’s from 4.8, 4.6L down to 4.0 and 4.4L and twin turbocharged them. Yes, those are all pricey vehicles, but as with most technologies, the trend is working its way down to less pricey brands. Inline 6 turbos and small V8 turbos are coming. And they’ll be pretty nice.

This ^

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

All I was trying to say is I think that the days of big power NA engines is just about over.

So to recap, I have not said DOHC is superior to OHV and can make more power with no issues. All I have said is that I don't know how much more room they have.

Just focusing on these two points.

I agree that NA engines will reach the limit at ~500 HP. That would be a pretty satisfying level for a base model Pony car. Further increases wouldn't necessarily be needed to continue as the base SS, GT, R/T offering.

Can manufactures continue to offer 500 HP NA engines with up coming fuel economy and emission standards? I think the C8 Corvette will give us a glimpse of whats coming for the gen7 Camaro.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

2010 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 315 HP ()
2011 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 411 HP
2012 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 411 HP
2013 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 420 HP
2014 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 420 HP
2015 - Camaro 426 HP Mustang 435 HP (Finally surpassed the SS after 5 years)

2016 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 435 HP
2017 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 435 HP
2018 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 460 HP (Took a complete removal of an engine that was only 3 years old and a new Coyote engine to surpass the unchanged Camaro)

2019 - Camaro 455 HP Mustang 480 HP (I'll be generous and count the Bullitt even tho it is not a general car and carries a premium)

So what in the Hell gives you any evidence that the Coyote has more room than the Camaro. GM has shown that they will leave the output of the Camaro unchanged throughout that entire particular Gen. So because they're keeping true to what they did in the previous Gen, THAT means they're struggling? Who's to say that Ford didn't throw all their cards on the table with the Bullitt and are at their cap? Look what it took to get to 526 HP? Super high compression, 8200 RPMs, an expensive AF CPC engine that was still prone to failures and oil consumption and NVH, and even at that the power didn't come on until after you eclipsed more than half of the RPM. So if you ask me, that Voodoo engine was maxed out. How much more can they push the 5.0 to?

The problem with ANY NA engine is that displacement will be needed to make serious power. It isn't an issue specific to OHV or DOHC. It is all across the board. Why do you think they had to add a little more CI to the 3rd Gen Coyote? It was to help them get to the power they needed to beat the SS. Otherwise there would have been no reason to not go up to 5.2 L or more. SO what you're both saying does not hold any weight. I see no evidence that the DOHC engine at 5.0 Liters has any more or less capacity than the 6.2. And again, the SRT8 is making more HP than both of them and I'm not seeing Dodge have any problems with emissions, cold start nonsense, or anything else you guys are talking about.

And other than the model years of 2010, 2016, and 2017, the Mustang GT's torque-less Coyote has been faster

[SpeedIsLife]

I think Dodge may drop one more fat N/A motor for the 2020 MY (Anniversary of the 426 Hemi Challenger)..rumors say 550 HP but we'll see...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

Just focusing on these two points.

I agree that NA engines will reach the limit at ~500 HP. That would be a pretty satisfying level for a base model Pony car. Further increases wouldn't necessarily be needed to continue as the base SS, GT, R/T offering.

Can manufactures continue to offer 500 HP NA engines with up coming fuel economy and emission standards? I think the C8 Corvette will give us a glimpse of whats coming for the gen7 Camaro.

That is the million dollar question. A 500 HP "base" V8 pony car would be amazing. I agree with what we see from the mid engine Vette will really be telling. I also think look at what Cadillac is doing. It does seem just based on Cadillac and rumor mill from Mid Engine Vette seems to show turbo DOHC are the future.

Originally Posted by newmoon

And other than the model years of 2010, 2016, and 2017, the Mustang GT's torque-less Coyote has been faster

Yes but they were also lighter, from 11 to 14, and SRA.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

I think Dodge may drop one more fat N/A motor for the 2020 MY (Anniversary of the 426 Hemi Challenger)..rumors say 550 HP but we'll see...

That would be impressive. I don't know if we will see that power number but I would be impressed.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by newmoon

And other than the model years of 2010, 2016, and 2017, the Mustang GT's torque-less Coyote has been faster

Ok...and from every year that both cars have been in production from the early 80s to 2011 the Camaro has been faster.

I have no problem with the S197. That was the first time in decades that Ford actually offered an impressive Mustang that wasn't a non-specialty or limited production vehicle. The S550s however sucked ass from 15-17. And the 18 was a one-trick pony. The PP2 showed potential but it overheats. LOL! So to me, even if the GT is faster, I think Ford is still losing with the S550. The only thing that can or might impress me is the GT500.

[SpeedIsLife]

As a fyi...in 2015 the Mustang switched over from the S197 production code to the S550.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

As a fyi...in 2015 the Mustang switched over from the S197 production code to the S550.

Typo...

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Here is every post I made on the topic







I don't see anywhere in there where I said DOHC won't run into the same problems, or that you will be able to make DOHC make more power than an OHV engine. . In fact I even said that the same problems will effect both engine designs. All I have been saying is that I don't know how much further the NA engine can be pushed to making power that will meet emissions standards. That is all. I was not trying to say DOHC is superior to OHV and won't have any issues going forward. All I was trying to say is I think that the days of big power NA engines is just about over. Now I may have mentioned OHV more because we were talking mostly about the LT engine series.

Yes the Dodge 6.4 is making more HP than the LT1. 30 more HP, it also has more displacement than the LT1. I also said I do not believe the LT1 is tapped out. I said there are things they can do to improve it and make more power. All I have been saying this whole time is I don't know how much more they can push it. I would be shocked if we see something well over HP NA in the future. If we look at the rumored mid engine vette engines, the rumor mill is a DOHC NA application, a Turbo DOHC and possibly a carry over LT1. Cadillac's new hot engine is a turbo DOHC. and as Martin points out below, that is just kind of the way performance is going.

So to recap, I have not said DOHC is superior to OHV and can make more power with no issues. All I have said is that I don't know how much more room they have.



This ^

Ok I was probably lumping you in with Mountain because he seemed to be suggesting that the 5.0 DOHC engine has more potential than the 6.2 OHV engines. I was just trying to figure out where he was getting that idea from.

I think we will see NA Camaros and Mustangs in the 500s soon. There is plenty of tech still to be used. And as we speak there is more tech becoming available. But what I think will cap these engines before emissions and driveability will be safety. Just how fast can these cars be made before it becomes too unsafe for the general public. We already have ZL1s in the low 11s, Hellcats in the mid 11s, GTs and Shelbys and the SS in the low 12s, etc. So what is next for the 7th Gen? An 11 flat ZL1? Possibly a high 10 for the Z06? High 11s for the SS? Looking at things realistically, performance potential is soon going to eclipse Human control. Judging by how many Mustangs have lost control and plowed into other objects I'd say we're seeing that right now. ZL1s and Hellcats and GT500s are one thing because the majority of the public can't afford these cars anyway. But what happens when the standard SS that is more affordable is doing what Hellcats and ZL1s are doing now? And then are being modded to go even faster? Out of general concern for safety I think we'll see these engines staying in the 500 range or maybe even the high 400 range and employing other tech like AWD and better suspension or less weight. Even if they do go to forced induction V6s I doubt we'll see mega HP SS Camaros and GTs out there. But that is just my take.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok I was probably lumping you in with Mountain because he seemed to be suggesting that the 5.0 DOHC engine has more potential than the 6.2 OHV engines. I was just trying to figure out where he was getting that idea from.

I think we will see NA Camaros and Mustangs in the 500s soon. There is plenty of tech still to be used. And as we speak there is more tech becoming available. But what I think will cap these engines before emissions and driveability will be safety. Just how fast can these cars be made before it becomes too unsafe for the general public. We already have ZL1s in the low 11s, Hellcats in the mid 11s, GTs and Shelbys and the SS in the low 12s, etc. So what is next for the 7th Gen? An 11 flat ZL1? Possibly a high 10 for the Z06? High 11s for the SS? Looking at things realistically, performance potential is soon going to eclipse Human control. Judging by how many Mustangs have lost control and plowed into other objects I'd say we're seeing that right now. ZL1s and Hellcats and GT500s are one thing because the majority of the public can't afford these cars anyway. But what happens when the standard SS that is more affordable is doing what Hellcats and ZL1s are doing now? And then are being modded to go even faster? Out of general concern for safety I think we'll see these engines staying in the 500 range or maybe even the high 400 range and employing other tech like AWD and better suspension or less weight. Even if they do go to forced induction V6s I doubt we'll see mega HP SS Camaros and GTs out there. But that is just my take.

We are all good

I agree we may see them dip into the 500s but personally I think that will probably be it.

And also like a I mentioned combine that with Corvette tech usually trickles down and we see the rumored C8 engines are LT1, a DOHC NA engine and a DOHC turbo engine. We also see Cadillac's new performance engine is a turbo DOHC. Just seems that NA power plants for performance cars are going to become a thing of the past soon.