[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I didn't speak out of my ass, that was you. You spew a lot of misinformation, and I corrected you multiple times now.

I've been waiting for the reply but you continue to sidestep it.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

You did. You made a statement. You can't back it up. So you changed to subject to something from a week ago. Conversation over. Walk on.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by oldman

I've heard about mid-engine Vette since the 60s.. Ain't buying it, literally.

I'm not a fan of the mid-engine Vette that is supposed to be coming out. I don't think the performance would be worth the extra cost. I would actually prefer to see an AWD version of the Vette or Camaro before a mid-engine design.

Originally Posted by oldman

Also note same SPEED in the 1/4 meaning all of the supposed GT's advantage was at the launch, sure the 1le was very tight so there was not a whole lot of weight transfer. We all know which one would blow which in the road course right?

Outside of the Cobras the Mustang wasn't worth buying in the mid 90s to early 2000s. Well also the Mach 1. The only thing the GT had going for them was that they were cheap and they sounded good with a catback. And if you threw a blower on it you could get to about 400 to the wheels safely and reliably.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Outside of the Cobras the Mustang wasn't worth buying in the mid 90s to early 2000s. Well also the Mach 1. The only thing the GT had going for them was that they were cheap and they sounded good with a catback. And if you threw a blower on it you could get to about 400 to the wheels safely and reliably.

Cobra... blah. I think the GT40 intake and heads offered a great upgrade for the 80s Mustang.

400 HP, super super like candy to work on... nuff said.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by oldman

Cobra... blah. I think the GT40 intake and heads offered a great upgrade for the 80s Mustang.

400 HP, super super like candy to work on... nuff said.

I was a fan of the Edelbrock Performer RPM series kit and the Holley Systemax II kit. I had the Performer RPM on my 95 GT that had a 351W conversion. That car was a blast! My cousin has a 91 with a 347 stroker and TF (old style) cast iron heads and the Professional Products Typhoon IM (knock off of the Performer IM, lol).

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by oldman

Also note same SPEED in the 1/4 meaning all of the supposed GT's advantage was at the launch, sure the 1le was very tight so there was not a whole lot of weight transfer. We all know which one would blow which in the road course right?

And back then who cared about what a mustang/camaro would do at a track - nobody. It was all street and strip action. Come into to a gathering talking about how your car handled and you would be laughed right out.

[BlaqWhole]

I gotta disagree. I mean, true there was a lot of street action much like today. But there was a lot of action and big names at the tracks too. At least around here. The track stayed packed every night. People would be out there gambling, fighting, etc. A lot of shops got their name from going to the track and racing their cars.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I'm not a fan of the mid-engine Vette that is supposed to be coming out. I don't think the performance would be worth the extra cost. I would actually prefer to see an AWD version of the Vette or Camaro before a mid-engine design.

Why not? If the rumors of a starting price of $70K are real, then there will be nothing like in the world at its price range.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by 2012 IngotSilver 5.0

First you say the Camaro is a "true" sports car, then you finally admit that Chevy and Ford have different aims.

Does the word "duplicitous" mean anything to you?

For perfecting the art of speaking out of both sides of your mouth, I award you first member of my ignore list.

Congratulations!

First was agreeing that Ford and Chevy have different aims. Camaro sports car and Mustang not.

Second called you out for overlooking the poor performance of the PP1 to refute my statement "good enough". That was supported by Lieberman's statement.

"Not only should Ford have done a better job, but I know they can do a better job."

Ford doesn't care because you all overlook the shortcoming. This is a PP1 costing $49,670. It's list of performance parts and upgrades match the 1LE with the exception of 30 mm tire width. There is no excuse for how poorly it performed.

Sorry if my sentiments offended you but they align completely with the conclusion of article.

Words - Jonny Lieberman
When I asked our handling guru Kim Reynolds what he thought about the two cars after lapping them, he looked first at the Camaro then disparagingly glanced at the Mustang and said, “There’s about 4,000 years of evolution separating the two.”
...
Ever since the Mustang went with an independent rear end, the GTs haven’t been set up properly. ... I had high hopes the combination of the 2018 refresh, the new Performance Pack goodies, and MagneRide would fix things. Nope. The car rolls over on itself and seems to not only understeer but also to try and oversteer at the same time. Like the front and back aren’t actually connected.

The Camaro SS 1LE laid down a 1:20.67 lap, 3.3 seconds quicker. In other words, these two cars wouldn’t be allowed to race together. Different classes doesn’t cover it. The list of cars the Camaro went faster than should embarrass some OEMs: Porsche Cayman GT4, 2014 Audi R8 V10 Plus, Ferrari 458 Italia. I mean, come on!

The Camaro is in another league, with legitimate Supercar. A 2015 GT-R NISMO held the Streets record, 1:19.07 - meaning the gulf between the quickest car ever lapped at the track and the Chevy (1.6 seconds) was less than half the gulf between our two competitors (3.3 seconds). But then we got bored at lunch and Randy ran a lap in a Huracan Performante. Result: new champ, at 1:18.73 - making the Camaro the sixth fastest car around Streets. Yet the Chevy is still less than 2 seconds off the pace of hyper car costing six times as much. Dang.

The winner this round? The Camaro 1LE. Chevy has done the near impossible, transcending the genre and turning a once provincial pony car into an honest to goodness world-class sports car. This $46,000 miracle punches so far above its weight that I’m in danger of saying things that could be taken out of context. Such as, if I were an engineer at BMW or even Porsche, I’d clear off my drawing boards.

Where does that leave the Mustang? If you don’t care about measurable performance and are instead into the “cowboy science” side of things, you have your winner. However, in the ways that matter to car guys, the 2018 Mustang got its butt handed to it. For less money, Chevy out-engineered Ford. And this is what galls me. Not only should Ford have done a better job, but I know they can do a better job. The Shelby GT350R - a car that’s every inch as awesome and breathtaking as a Porsche GT3 - proves Ford has the knowledge to build a better car. It remains to be seen how much the fourth coming Performance Package 2 can close the gap with the GT350R and this Camaro SS 1LE. You can expect another pony car face-off for the answer

[Redlinez]

Just read that review this morning. I guess we will see how the PP2 Mustang does soon enough, can't wait to see the price.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Redlinez

Just read that review this morning. I guess we will see how the PP2 Mustang does soon enough, can't wait to see the price.

As BlaqWhole pointed out in the past, the PP2 is going to need to match the base GT350. Could be that the engineers were able to create the PP2 working after hours because they took the chassis set-up directly from the GT350. That would solve the PP1 mess

[shaffe]

I'm gone for a few days and were talking about cars that came out almost 30 years ago lol

Originally Posted by hotlap

Agree. Chevy and Ford have different aims. It seems clear to me that as Corvette goes mid-engine after hypercars, Camaro is moving up in both cost and performance.

And that is a huge mistake if they that's the route they go IMO. I think it's great they keep pushing Camaro to be the best it can be, but if they expect it to fill the slot left by the front engine vette IMO that is a terrible idea. Sorry to the Camaro faithful here, but the camaro will NEVER be the corvette. I don't care if Camaro is faster/better handler it still won't be a Corvette EVER.

I have said it numerous times on this site, owning a brand new vette is a bucket list thing for me. If the day comes when I can finally afford a brand new car as a toy, and I walk into the Chevy dealer and the Corvette is now a 100K just to get into one but they say hey we have this Camaro here, sorry I'm walking right out the door.

Again that whole situation is avoided if they keep the mid engine vette still affordable.

Originally Posted by hotlap

First was agreeing that Ford and Chevy have different aims. Camaro sports car and Mustang not.

Second called you out for overlooking the poor performance of the PP1 to refute my statement "good enough". That was supported by Lieberman's statement.

"Not only should Ford have done a better job, but I know they can do a better job."

Ford doesn't care because you all overlook the shortcoming. This is a PP1 costing $49,670. It's list of performance parts and upgrades match the 1LE with the exception of 30 mm tire width. There is no excuse for how poorly it performed.

Sorry if my sentiments offended you but they align completely with the conclusion of article.

What is disappointing to me is how incoherent this PP1 seemed to be. It was really bad lol. It would not have changed the outcome, but it just seemed like the car was not dialed in properly.

[FastCarFanBoy]

Originally Posted by hotlap

First was agreeing that Ford and Chevy have different aims. Camaro sports car and Mustang not.

Second called you out for overlooking the poor performance of the PP1 to refute my statement "good enough". That was supported by Lieberman's statement.

"Not only should Ford have done a better job, but I know they can do a better job."

Ford doesn't care because you all overlook the shortcoming. This is a PP1 costing $49,670. It's list of performance parts and upgrades match the 1LE with the exception of 30 mm tire width. There is no excuse for how poorly it performed.

Sorry if my sentiments offended you but they align completely with the conclusion of article.

there is an excuse, it’s just not one you like to hear and that is that people care less about fractions of a second around a road course or .1 on a drag strip then they do about things like visibility and storage space. Performance can be improved if needed but unless you are going to install a Google Earth mapping camera on the Camaro your stuck with horrible sight lines. And no matter how many times Jonny talks up how the Camaro is the best driving car on Earth the sales will continue to reflect it.

[DevilsReject97]

Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy

there is an excuse, it’s just not one you like to hear and that is that people care less about fractions of a second around a road course or .1 on a drag strip then they do about things like visibility and storage space. Performance can be improved if needed but unless you are going to install a Google Earth mapping camera on the Camaro your stuck with horrible sight lines. And no matter how many times Jonny talks up how the Camaro is the best driving car on Earth the sales will continue to reflect it.

LMAO!!!! And yet, this whole thread is about performance...and you have the actual balls to come on here and talk about storage and sight lines?

GTFOH!!!!!

[shaffe]

I wouldn't say that's an excuse but rather different strategy/goal. GM clearly put performance as priority #1, Ford did not.