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Old 12-09-2023, 03:15 PM   #1443
Martinjlm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
*Disclaimer


Rapid Chargers (AKA Battery Capacity Reducers) are only recommended for use under the following conditions. Failure to adhere to these recommendations will yield even worse results than already accepted negative impacts of fast charging.


  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot. Allow the car to pre-condition the battery first
  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold. Allow the car to precondition the battery first
  • Do not charge when starting below 20% Charging the battery below 10%, (not 20%) will have the battery charge slow at first, quickly between 20 & 80%, then slow again from 80 - 100% unless it is an LFP battery, in which case, do what you want
  • Do not charge past 80% The battery charges slower between 80-100% It is advisable to charge to 100% prior to taking long trips
  • Do not charge too frequently. Patently false
  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que If charging from 20 - 80% the amount of time it takes ranges from 20 - 40 minutes, depending on the speed of the charger and the size of the battery
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
A pro-EV site, ironically, one that actually concedes some truths about negatives. I'd normally have to scroll to page 50 of Google results to find something besides Jalopnik with anything negative to say about our environmental salvation through government manupulation of the marketplace.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/resear...-fast-charging


When is fast charging more likely to cause damage?
There are several times when fast charging may have a bigger impact on your EV battery.

Avoid fast charging in extreme heat without preconditioning your battery. Preconditioning is when the carís thermal management system pre-cools the battery so it can accept a higher charge rate without overheating. Typically, if you set your carís navigation to a fast charge station, the battery will be preconditioned.
Similarly, precondition the battery before fast charging in extreme cold. Often, driving a bit before fast charging is enough to warm up the battery, or get to the fast charger using your carís navigation.
Avoid fast charging your EV at very low states or very high states of charge, since battery resistance will be higher.


Yes, there are mitigations, but there is no escaping that fast charging reduces the lifespan/capacity of your battery and consequently reduces the equity/resale value of an EV.
Well, you conveniently left out some very important information that they included, like anything about preconditioning the battery before charging. This happens pretty much automatically in cold and hot conditions.

Iíve added back in on some of your original points the things that you left out of your original list.
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Old 12-09-2023, 04:02 PM   #1444
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The initial quoted material was written in response specifically to "BIG NEWS!" post about (subsidized) fast charging infrastructure going up nationwide.

  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot. Allow the car to pre-condition the battery first
This serves as a mitigating action and doesn't change the fact that fast charging is more detrimental to a battery than AC/slow charging. Even so, EV owners will get least detrimental impacts when charging within a specified temperature range.

  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold. Allow the car to precondition the battery first
This serves as a mitigating action and doesn't change the fact that fast charging is more detrimental to a battery than AC/slow charging. Even so, EV owners will get least detrimental impacts when charging within a specified temperature range.



  • Do not charge when starting below 20% Charging the battery below 10%, (not 20%) will have the battery charge slow at first, quickly between 20 & 80%, then slow again from 80 - 100% unless it is an LFP battery, in which case, do what you want
So, automatic or not, do not apply fast charging to a battery under 10%. I've seen other articles that call it at 20%. Got it.

  • Do not charge past 80% The battery charges slower between 80-100% It is advisable to charge to 100% prior to taking long trips
So, automatic or not, do not apply fast charging to a battery past 80%. Got it.
  • Do not charge too frequently. Patently false
The more you apply fast charging, the faster your battery capacity will degrade compared to if you solely used AC/Slow charging at your home. This alone would discourage many owners from using fast charging, or using as sparingly as possible. Apartment dwellers (those with likely lower incomes) that will need to rely more on fast charging will be impacted the most.

  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que If charging from 20 - 80% the amount of time it takes ranges from 20 - 40 minutes, depending on the speed of the charger and the size of the battery
I can fill my gas tank in about 4-5 min, and there is almost never a line for gasoline. I have no desire to spend the better part of an hour at the Flying J truck stop for a "fast" charge. Furthermore, I find solace in knowing every filling of my gas tank has no detrimental impact on my car's range over time, beyond normal mechanical wear.
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Old 12-09-2023, 05:02 PM   #1445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
*Disclaimer


Rapid Chargers (AKA Battery Capacity Reducers) are only recommended for use under the following conditions. Failure to adhere to these recommendations will yield even worse results than already accepted negative impacts of fast charging.


  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot.
  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold.
  • Do not charge when starting below 20%
  • Do not charge past 80%
  • Do not charge too frequently.
  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
The initial quoted material was written in response specifically to "BIG NEWS!" post about (subsidized) fast charging infrastructure going up nationwide.

  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot. Allow the car to pre-condition the battery first
This serves as a mitigating action and doesn't change the fact that fast charging is more detrimental to a battery than AC/slow charging. Even so, EV owners will get least detrimental impacts when charging within a specified temperature range.

  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold. Allow the car to precondition the battery first
This serves as a mitigating action and doesn't change the fact that fast charging is more detrimental to a battery than AC/slow charging. Even so, EV owners will get least detrimental impacts when charging within a specified temperature range.



  • Do not charge when starting below 20% Charging the battery below 10%, (not 20%) will have the battery charge slow at first, quickly between 20 & 80%, then slow again from 80 - 100% unless it is an LFP battery, in which case, do what you want
So, automatic or not, do not apply fast charging to a battery under 10%. I've seen other articles that call it at 20%. Got it.

  • Do not charge past 80% The battery charges slower between 80-100% It is advisable to charge to 100% prior to taking long trips
So, automatic or not, do not apply fast charging to a battery past 80%. Got it.
  • Do not charge too frequently. Patently false
The more you apply fast charging, the faster your battery capacity will degrade compared to if you solely used AC/Slow charging at your home. This alone would discourage many owners from using fast charging, or using as sparingly as possible. Apartment dwellers (those with likely lower incomes) that will need to rely more on fast charging will be impacted the most.

  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que If charging from 20 - 80% the amount of time it takes ranges from 20 - 40 minutes, depending on the speed of the charger and the size of the battery
I can fill my gas tank in about 4-5 min, and there is almost never a line for gasoline. I have no desire to spend the better part of an hour at the Flying J truck stop for a "fast" charge. Furthermore, I find solace in knowing every filling of my gas tank has no detrimental impact on my car's range over time, beyond normal mechanical wear.
Almost everything you wrote in green is pretty accurate. But can you see how different that is than what you originally wrote? Itís all conditional and you presented as fact without the conditions.

Nobody should rely on Fast Charging as their primary means of powering the vehicle because it does degrade the battery over time. I doubt youíd find anyone who knows anything about EVs that would argue that point. Statistics do show, however, that EV owners do more than 90% of their charging at home at 220 - 240V. The point of Fast Charging is to provide charging capability for long trips. Period. I donít need to waste even 5 minutes at a gas station because every morning I have 260 miles of range, even though I typically only need 20 - 50. If I spend 40 minutes at a Tesla Supercharger a couple times a year when I do make long trips, it is more than made up for in the many times I donít have to spend 5 minutes at a gas station. Itís all about a preference for trade-offs. Eliminate 90% of the 5 minute fill-ups in exchange for a handful of 25-40 minute stops? Cool.
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Old 12-09-2023, 05:51 PM   #1446
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When the charge stations canít keep up with demand, Iím gonna get a 10-15 k generator, drive around and charge $60 for a 1/2 hour and then $30 for every half hour after that.

Well shitÖ.probably should have kept that idea to myself.
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Old 12-09-2023, 06:29 PM   #1447
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Originally Posted by Martinjlm View Post
Almost everything you wrote in green is pretty accurate. But can you see how different that is than what you originally wrote? It’s all conditional and you presented as fact without the conditions.

Kind of like how (to el ess a's point), all the hype/propaganda that is shoved in our faces around EV's deliberately leaves out the limitations and negatives of EVs? And that type of downside information is almost impossible to find unless you go digging for it?


Ranges are exaggerated. Insurance is nuts. A scratch/dent can total it. Free ride on electric rates and highway taxes will not last. Registrations can already be very high. Excess weight. Tire wear. Road wear. Fast charging is only valid for about 60% of your total capacity and is detrimental. Poor performance in cold climates. Rapid initial depreciation/poor resale value. ...among other things.


People need to go into this fully informed, even though they won't have a choice in the end. EV's may have a role in the future, but as it stands they are not the answer to everything they are portrayed as.

Last edited by Capricio; 12-09-2023 at 06:43 PM.
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Old 12-10-2023, 08:16 AM   #1448
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I had a EV with a standard range battery and a grid heater for a year. I fast charged once. Took the ICE for long trips.
More important to have a home charger on a 60amp breaker.

I want my next one to have true 250+ mi range, sunroof, heated seats/steering wheel, and a heat pump. I’d be happy with that.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:15 AM   #1449
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Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
Kind of like how (to el ess a's point), all the hype/propaganda that is shoved in our faces around EV's deliberately leaves out the limitations and negatives of EVs? And that type of downside information is almost impossible to find unless you go digging for it?


Ranges are exaggerated. Insurance is nuts. A scratch/dent can total it. Free ride on electric rates and highway taxes will not last. Registrations can already be very high. Excess weight. Tire wear. Road wear. Fast charging is only valid for about 60% of your total capacity and is detrimental. Poor performance in cold climates. Rapid initial depreciation/poor resale value. ...among other things.


People need to go into this fully informed, even though they won't have a choice in the end. EV's may have a role in the future, but as it stands they are not the answer to everything they are portrayed as.
Maybe every few pages or so of this thread I should just reiterate where I am coming from. I’m an automotive analyst and consultant. It’s literally my job to look at everything that’s going on in the auto industry and help my clients navigate through the uncertainty. Along the way, I learn almost as much from my clients as they learn from me.

As far as EVs go, I understand, like and appreciate EVs and own one. I recognize that after a couple failed attempts, EVs have now stamped an indelible mark on the industry and will continue to take market share away from ICE. This tends to p!$$ off a lot of my ICE ‘til I die friends. Whatever.

As far as ICEs go, I understand, like and appreciate ICEs and own three. I recognize that despite the efforts of regulators and some state governments, ICE will be around for a while. Probably a couple more decades. Maybe longer. This tends to p!$$ off a lot of my EV or the world is doomed friends. Whatever.

The company I work for is the premier automotive forecasting company in the world. We also get vehicle registration information from every US state, every Canadian province, and most countries on the planet. This helps make our production and sales reporting as well as our forecasts more accurate. It also allows us to produce customer facing tools like CarFax and dealer facing tools like Automotive MasterMind. I’m sure that many here would be absolutely shocked to know that as the forecasters work on developing the next forecast, I’m the loudest voice in the room telling them they need to dial back some of the EV volume that they are projecting for the US. In my opinion they are relying too much on European math models that (accurately) project very high EV take rates and very fast drawback on ICE in Europe. There are factors, some of them mentioned by el ess a and Capricio that will slow the rate of growth, but not the fact that there will continue to be growth. That’s probably all I can say about that in this forum without getting fired.

What I try to do most in this thread is push back on a lot of the denial that seems to resonate from strongly held opinions tossed around as fact. So things like “Do not fast charge a battery when conditions are too cold”….c’mon, that’s not true. There are elements of truth, like it’s not good for the battery to charge it when it’s cold. But absent the fact that every EV tells you what to do to completely avoid that is missing and makes the statement by itself a bit disingenuous. I also tend to point out that the “it’ll take you x hours to charge on long trips” has already been dealt with and just plain is not true anymore. Battery development has improved charge times to the point where most EVs can add a couple hundred miles of range in the time it takes to go to the bathroom and replenish snacks for the rest of the trip. I also tend to point out that when I use my ICE vehicles, I’m spending 5 - 10 minutes at a time gassing them. When I’m driving our EV, I save that time every single week of the year.

I have no intention of telling anybody that they should buy an EV anymore than I would tell anybody that they should buy a V8 Camaro. Actually I’m more inclined to tell someone who asks to NOT buy an EV. Especially if they cannot reliably charge it at Level 2 overnight. I do tend to chime in when people declare, usually with no data or based on Scotty Kilmer type clickbait that “EVs can’t do this” and “EVs can’t do that” by providing data that shows that they can and that EV capability tends to improve at clock speeds measured in weeks, not years. There are very few things, possibly none, that ICE can do but EV cannot. Make really cool exhaust noises is probably at the top of the list of can’t do. They may do things differently in a lot of cases, but typically, they can in fact do them. And development continues, so those gaps that do exist are continuously being closed.
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Old 12-10-2023, 09:50 AM   #1450
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Ö Iím sure that many here would be absolutely shocked to know that as the forecasters work on developing the next forecast, Iím the loudest voice in the room telling them they need to dial back some of the EV volume that they are projecting for the US. In my opinion they are relying too much on European math models that (accurately) project very high EV take rates and very fast drawback on ICE in EuropeÖ
It just occurred to me that at the last meeting on this topic, I was the only one in the room who actually owns an EV, but I was the one pushing back the hardest on the growth curve.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:01 AM   #1451
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If I lived in Europe I would 100% own an EV. Gas is super expensive and travelling distances are generally short. They are absolutely the best for that situation.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:07 AM   #1452
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If I lived in Europe I would 100% own an EV. Gas is super expensive and travelling distances are generally short. They are absolutely the best for that situation.
Exactly. That and the emissions rules are tougher and OEM fines more onerous. Plus they now have low cost Chinese EVs coming in at prices below domestic (for them) ICEs. In the US, IRA is designed to prevent that.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:46 AM   #1453
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There are very few things, possibly none, that ICE can do but EV cannot. Make really cool exhaust noises is probably at the top of the list of canít do. They may do things differently in a lot of cases, but typically, they can in fact do them. And development continues, so those gaps that do exist are continuously being closed.
Well, to your own point, even if EVs can do them, they can't do many of them as well as ICE, at least not yet. So, its important to point out what these shortfalls are, because the media isn't going to readily talk about any of this. Why is that, anyways? Isn't pointing out all the "conditional aspects" of EV capabilities useful to consumers?

...and as you also point out, things are evolving quickly. Which is why I advise people to hold off. Wait for the instructructure to get in place, the grid, power generation, and the charging nodes. Wait for more viable battery chemistry/solid state to become available. Wait for OEMs to figure out an assembly process and chassis design that can take at least a minor fender collision. Wait for someone to figure out how to get domestically sourced lithium out of the ground. What is (actively) being done to address any of these issues? I can't find anything.

I predict any EV bought now or within the next 2-3 years will be virtually worthless in 10-12 years relative to what new EV tech is coming. Would you say the same for a new ICE SUV or truck bought now? Should people have to settle for such a limited lifecycle compared to ICE? How long should the government actively promote EVs? Is there any limit to how far they should go? If so, what should that limit be? When can/should they stop, if ever?

Yet, all we hear is unbridled enthusiasm for getting on the bandwagon, immediatly, with goverment subsidies and cheap electric rates while they last. What's good for Greta, the OEMs, and goverment graft recipients isn't always what is best for lower and middle class consumers. I'm not saying i'll never buy an EV, but what is being presented to me now is distorted and misleading, which leads me to feel a level of mistrust and apprehension about them. ...but again, sure, reduce our arguments down to "vroom vroom", that's all us bitter clingers care about, I guess.
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Old 12-10-2023, 10:58 AM   #1454
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Exactly. That and the emissions rules are tougher and OEM fines more onerous. Plus they now have low cost Chinese EVs coming in at prices below domestic (for them) ICEs. In the US, IRA is designed to prevent that.
Ah yes, the glorious "Somehow Reduce Inflation through Massive Spending Act".

https://jalopnik.com/rental-company-...due-1851081220

While Hertz is taking a step back from electric cars altogether, Sixt is directly singling out Tesla here, as it continues to increase its electric fleet. The companyís goal is to slowly replace its gasoline and diesel-powered cars until at least 90 percent of its fleet is electric, and it aims to do so by the end of this decade. Unless Tesla improves its quality, collision repair costs, and residual values, the second-largest rental fleet in Europe (and fourth-largest in the U.S.) wonít include cars from the American automaker.


What is being done about quality, collision repair costs, and residual value? Should Tesla bother doing anything when they don't have to compete with Chinese manufacturers for US sales, with the IRA wind in their sails (sales)?

Pun intended.
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Old 12-10-2023, 12:04 PM   #1455
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Well, to your own point, even if EVs can do them, they can't do many of them as well as ICE, at least not yet. So, its important to point out what these shortfalls are, because the media isn't going to readily talk about any of this. Why is that, anyways? Isn't pointing out all the "conditional aspects" of EV capabilities useful to consumers?

...and as you also point out, things are evolving quickly. Which is why I advise people to hold off. Wait for the instructructure to get in place, the grid, power generation, and the charging nodes. Wait for more viable battery chemistry/solid state to become available. Wait for OEMs to figure out an assembly process and chassis design that can take at least a minor fender collision. Wait for someone to figure out how to get domestically sourced lithium out of the ground. What is (actively) being done to address any of these issues? I can't find anything.

I predict any EV bought now or within the next 2-3 years will be virtually worthless in 10-12 years relative to what new EV tech is coming. Would you say the same for a new ICE SUV or truck bought now? Should people have to settle for such a limited lifecycle compared to ICE? How long should the government actively promote EVs? Is there any limit to how far they should go? If so, what should that limit be? When can/should they stop, if ever?

Yet, all we hear is unbridled enthusiasm for getting on the bandwagon, immediatly, with goverment subsidies and cheap electric rates while they last. What's good for Greta, the OEMs, and goverment graft recipients isn't always what is best for lower and middle class consumers. I'm not saying i'll never buy an EV, but what is being presented to me now is distorted and misleading, which leads me to feel a level of mistrust and apprehension about them. ...but again, sure, reduce our arguments down to "vroom vroom", that's all us bitter clingers care about, I guess.
The American auto industry (ICE based for 100 years) practically invented the concept of planned obsolescence. The computer industry hyper-focused it. It’s long been said that if you’re waiting for the best version, you’ll be waiting forever. That’s where EV tech is now. If you’re waiting for “the best version” it’s next month. Or the month after that or the month after that. This is somewhat blunted by over the air updates. Got our Model Y the first week of November. We’ve already received two updates that added functionality that wasn’t there when we bought it.

So I think that where we are now is that in roughly a 10 year span, EVs have progressed from being warm weather grocery getter / to and from work oddities to being fully capable transportation machines, equal in most specs to ICE that have been developed and improved over 100 years. And they’re only getting better.

For what it’s worth, I was not reducing the argument down to “vroom vroom”. I was out driving my Camaro yesterday. Top down in Michigan in December. Kind of enjoyed hearing the exhaust. The Model Y can’t do that so that’s why I mentioned it.

I don’t expect that most EVs on the today will be obsolete 10 years from now anymore than I would expect an ICE on the road today will be obsolete. My 2017 Camaro has an 8-spd automatic. Two years later GM dropped a much better 10-spd in the same car and added a camera mirror to boot. Did that obsolete my car? Nope. Similar dynamic with the improvements that are coming for EVs. There will still be a used market for them among people who can’t afford or don’t want to spend for a new. Same as with ICE today.
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Old 12-11-2023, 04:42 AM   #1456
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Kind of like how (to el ess a's point), all the hype/propaganda that is shoved in our faces around EV's deliberately leaves out the limitations and negatives of EVs? And that type of downside information is almost impossible to find unless you go digging for it?
Look back over this thread. For the last ~50 pages or so there have only been two guys actually giving positive info (not sure how its propaganda when its accurate?) about EVs, funnily enough that happens to be the two guys that actually own one.

Every other post has been about:
how expensive they are, how the infrastructure isnt there (valid tbf)
the environmental cost of manufacture and how they arent actually cheaper to run (not true at all)
or how clean power isnt actually possible or EVs arent selling (absolute bollocks thats easily disproven)

...... there is soo much negativity towards them, particularly in the USA its crazy. If they had 1000 miles ranges and cost $10 to fill up people would still have a problem, its madness.

ETA: nice to see "bollocks" isnt in the swear filter
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