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Old 12-08-2023, 11:57 AM   #1429
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Originally Posted by snizzle View Post
"They" can resist all they want. As time progresses, less choices will be available until none are available.
And this is the kind of thing that causes anger, hate, and even wars.

Everything about capitalism is denied when this statement is applicable.

And no, I'm not joking.
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:21 PM   #1430
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And this is the kind of thing that causes anger, hate, and even wars.

Everything about capitalism is denied when this statement is applicable.

And no, I'm not joking.
...but, people who are sure they are smarter than us know this is all for our own good, so... I'm sure it will all end well.
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Old 12-08-2023, 12:59 PM   #1431
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And this is the kind of thing that causes anger, hate, and even wars.
We're just at that part of the societal cycle. We enjoyed the fat-and-happy times of the last 100 years. This has made the people soft. Now comes the decline, struggle and collapse. The people will then become tougher and more resilient and then the next round of building will begin.
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Old 12-08-2023, 01:33 PM   #1432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snizzle View Post
"They" can resist all they want. As time progresses, less choices will be available until none are available.
Quote:
Originally Posted by olrocker View Post
And this is the kind of thing that causes anger, hate, and even wars.

Everything about capitalism is denied when this statement is applicable.

And no, I'm not joking.
The point is (snizzle please call me out if I’m misinterpreting you) the reason there are fewer available is because the OEMs are consciously withdrawing them from the market, ala Camaro, not because they are being outlawed.
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Last edited by Martinjlm; 12-08-2023 at 02:45 PM.
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Old 12-08-2023, 01:55 PM   #1433
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The point is (snizzle please all me out if Iím misinterpreting you) the reason there are fewer available is because the OEMs are consciously withdrawing them from the market, ala Camaro, not because they are being outlawed.
Well, I am saying that automakers are withdrawing them purposely while simultaneously pulling development dollars from ICE programs, or eliminating them entirely. Why did Blackwing disappear? A clean sheet design they barely used. There are exceptions (GM is spending $854 million on next gen V8 program) for trucks and full size SUVs: cash cows.

Not because of demand, or lackthereof, but because they see the writing on the wall and need to be well positioned to deal with those pressures.
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Old 12-09-2023, 08:45 AM   #1434
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More electric vehicle news. I’m pretty sure that I mentioned somewhere in this thread that the major oil companies are now getting into the charging station business. I may have also mentioned that Shell’s network can claim the single biggest charging location in the world. I know I mentioned that lately, new BP stations going up in my area (Detroit Metro) are being built with charging stations. Well, there’s more news from BP…Another example of major corporations seeing the writing on the wall.

Now BP is spending $100M to install Tesla 250kW chargers at some of those stations. So who’s gonna sit at a BP station for 4 hours waiting for their car to charge? NOBODY. Because at 250 kW, most Teslas will charge from 20% SOC to 80% SOC in 25 - 40 minutes, depending on battery size. For my car that would take me from about a 65 mile range to a 260 mile range in about 25 minutes. Seeing as how I MIGHT do that 10 or fewer times over the course of a year, not a problem. Right now I wake up with 260 miles range every morning. We only charge to 80%.
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Old 12-09-2023, 09:50 AM   #1435
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*Disclaimer


Rapid Chargers (AKA Battery Capacity Reducers) are only recommended for use under the following conditions. Failure to adhere to these recommendations will yield even worse results than already accepted negative impacts of fast charging.


  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot.
  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold.
  • Do not charge when starting below 20%
  • Do not charge past 80%
  • Do not charge too frequently.
  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:11 AM   #1436
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Originally Posted by Capricio View Post
*Disclaimer


Rapid Chargers (AKA Battery Capacity Reducers) are only recommended for use under the following conditions. Failure to adhere to these recommendations will yield even worse results than already accepted negative impacts of fast charging.


  • Do not charge when conditions are too hot.
  • Do not charge when conditions are too cold.
  • Do not charge when starting below 20%
  • Do not charge past 80%
  • Do not charge too frequently.
  • Be prepared for a stay at your charging station five to ten times longer than a typical gasoline fill-up, possibly longer if there is a que
WHAT?!?!?! What is your source for this?
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Old 12-09-2023, 10:33 AM   #1437
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Ö. performs better, has zero emissions, and people have shown a willingness to pay for. Ö.
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I can find you a lot of people that donít see it that way. A lot. Iím talking about people on the street. Only part of those words you can have any reasonable certainty on is the zero emissions and even that is speculative. And to be clear, I am not against EVís as a means of transportation.
I have no problem finding people on the street who donít give a ratís @$$ about EVs as well as some who are just flat out against it. But on the other hand, as EVs become more visible in the car landscape more people are paying attention and a lot of them are changing their perspectives.

Performance: Itís been demonstrated time and again that EVs are faster than ICE in a straight line, in some cases ridiculously so. Go to YouTube and look at Cybertruck vs F150 Raptor, Model S (pick a trim level) vs any BMW, Mercedes or Porsche (except maybe Porsche Turbo). Porsche Turbo vs Model S Plaid. Or Lucid Air. In my own garage, my Model Y Long Range is as fast as my Camaro SS e85 headers. A Model Y Performance would be faster. And itís a freakiní SUV. A Model 3 Performance would be no contest. Maybe the person on the street doesnít know or care, but it is demonstrated time and again all over the internet.

Zero Emission: EVs have zero in use emissions. Sure they have emissions involved in the manufacture of the cars and the batteries. So do ICE cars. EVs have more emissions in manufacture than ICE cars, but the in use emissions quickly offsets that. Again, the person on the street may not know or care.

Willingness to Pay For: Somebodyís buying Tesla. Model Y is the 4th best selling nameplate in the US, behind F150, Silverado, and RAV4. Model 3 is 10th. Tesla as a brand is only outsold by Ford, Toyota, Chevrolet and Honda and as I type this they actually may have caught Honda, itís that close. In studies done by S&P Global Mobility (full disclosure, I work for S&P Global Mobility) more than 60% of people in the market for a new vehicle have some interest in an EV for their next vehicle. Doesnít mean that 60% will buy them, just that they have an interest. Survey size was 7,500.
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Old 12-09-2023, 12:19 PM   #1438
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WHAT?!?!?! What is your source for this?
A pro-EV site, ironically, one that actually concedes some truths about negatives. I'd normally have to scroll to page 50 of Google results to find something besides Jalopnik with anything negative to say about our environmental salvation through government manupulation of the marketplace.

https://www.recurrentauto.com/resear...-fast-charging


When is fast charging more likely to cause damage?
There are several times when fast charging may have a bigger impact on your EV battery.

Avoid fast charging in extreme heat without preconditioning your battery. Preconditioning is when the carís thermal management system pre-cools the battery so it can accept a higher charge rate without overheating. Typically, if you set your carís navigation to a fast charge station, the battery will be preconditioned.
Similarly, precondition the battery before fast charging in extreme cold. Often, driving a bit before fast charging is enough to warm up the battery, or get to the fast charger using your carís navigation.
Avoid fast charging your EV at very low states or very high states of charge, since battery resistance will be higher.


Yes, there are mitigations, but there is no escaping that fast charging reduces the lifespan/capacity of your battery and consequently reduces the equity/resale value of an EV.
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Old 12-09-2023, 12:48 PM   #1439
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In studies done by S&P Global Mobility (full disclosure, I work for S&P Global Mobility) more than 60% of people in the market for a new vehicle have some interest in an EV for their next vehicle. Doesnít mean that 60% will buy them, just that they have an interest. Survey size was 7,500.
A much better question would have been, "How likely are you to purchase an EV as your next vehicle?"
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Old 12-09-2023, 01:42 PM   #1440
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A much better question would have been, "How likely are you to purchase an EV as your next vehicle?"
I think that is similar to the question that was asked. People were screened by identifying those in the market to purchase a vehicle. Then one of the questions they were asked was whether they would consider an EV (or hybrid, or PHEV) for their next purchase. More than one choice is allowable, so you can say that youíd consider buying an EV and youíd consider buying a hybrid, et cetera.
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Old 12-09-2023, 01:58 PM   #1441
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I truly believe the oversight of the manufacturers as well as the politicos that try to push their GT (Greta Thunberg) agendas are really doing a disservice to the EV market.

Among all the other things that potentially "scare" the public about EV ownership, there's not much that I see anyone doing to educate anyone on the benefits as well as potential pitfalls to BEV ownership. I think, in part, it's likely that once you get past the "because it's Green!", "renewable energy", "Zero tailpipe emissions", and "It's the #4 selling car in (fill in the blank)" stuff, is usually followed up with..."I got nothing". Because they stop talking.

They NEVER just come out and tell you about the infrastructure status, either in hold-ups or advancements, they NEVER tell you about the range being pie in the sky BS just like ICE EPA estimates. Because that's all they are- estimates. YMMV. They don't bother telling potential owners about the extreme temperature power issues they may face. Basically, they hide the truth, or simply leave out the unsavory bits. Or point to an obscure information pamphlet or website saying "It's all in there..." Well, F.U. very much for letting people know up front. So do your own homework because very few of those boneheads are willing to tell you.

Owning an EV, or any other fuel-sourced vehicle other than ICE, is going to be a learning curve for most people. A total lifestyle change. And a kick in the wallet up front. Some may be up for it, but some may not be. Or people buy an EV, get it home and call their insurance guy to get blind-sided by things like $3K+ per year to insure it? WTF? Not many people look into the insurance costs for EVs upfront when they consider ownership costs.

And this is not to say that eventually, if/when EVs do become the majority on the road, no one is even discussing the gas tax replacement. Some municipalities may be, but it's a tree falling in the forest with nobody around if they are. So not only the further stresses on the grid, but the cost of electricity will be on the way up...a lot more than people want to think about. I can see a "charging tax" coming soon to an electric pump near you. Can't see it now, but I can't see how it won't in the future. Plus, the local/state governments need to figure out new ways to pile on more taxes on them. I don't think they've got that all ironed out yet. Either way, you will pay.
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Old 12-09-2023, 02:36 PM   #1442
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They NEVER just come out and tell you about the infrastructure status, either in hold-ups or advancements, they NEVER tell you about the range being pie in the sky BS just like ICE EPA estimates. Because that's all they are- estimates. YMMV. They don't bother telling potential owners about the extreme temperature power issues they may face. Basically, they hide the truth, or simply leave out the unsavory bits. Or point to an obscure information pamphlet or website saying "It's all in there..." Well, F.U. very much for letting people know up front. So do your own homework because very few of those boneheads are willing to tell you.
When things don't live up to the hype, you can always call customer service and get a refund.

https://www.latimes.com/business/sto...a-range-claims

Reuters reports that Tesla created a team to cancel service appointments en masse for customers complaining about battery-range shortfalls.

https://www.reuters.com/investigates...tteries-range/
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