[hotlap]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Facts of the matter last year from the Washington Post which has tracked police killings since 2015...


For 2019 - source Washington Post database:

19 unarmed white suspects killed by police

10 unarmed black suspects killed by police
7,700 black men killed by black men
48 cops killed by black men.

Here is another source that backs that up nationally

Death by Police Shooting

Year White Black

2017 457 223

2018 399 209

2019 370 235

2020 (so far) 42 31



https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...racism-canard/

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...olice-by-race/

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

And those people are being arrested...will be procesecuted Maybe not all of them are getting caught, but they're being caught when they can and arrested and charged with crimes and will almost certainly be found guilty.

Even if it's not happening at the time of the crime, they have video footage and will track them down wherever possible. The justice system is good at punishing people.

Lets see if they can be just as good at punishing themselves for crimes as well.

These particular riots are a good mix of angry protesters, external groups looking to make a situation worse, and violent responses to non-rioting protests by police.

It's not something anyone wants but it appears to be something we as a people need to have happen before anything serious is changed in the system. It hasn't changed in the past with non-violent protests. I'm sure if the colored people could "strike" the police and the police suffered for it, we'd be able to avoid this... but you can't strike the police. How else do you make the unresponsive people in charge feel pain enough to do what they d ont want to do? How else do you make injustice apparent so that it can't continue to be ignored? Doing it the right ..civil way hasn't been working and this isn't an issue that can wait longer than it has. It's not a want or a privilege. It's basic human rights that are being trampled on based on skin color. Demanding that they try to redress that the way that hasn't been working is unrealistic. We should be more upset that it has come to this for basic equal treatment by people we pay to protect and serve the community more than we are upset that some property is being vandalized. We should be pursuing those cops (not just these particular 4 but all of them) that kill people without need or hurt them unnecessarily just as strongly as we pursue and want to prosecute people who damage businesses or steal cars. But we dont. We are letting bigger crimes go unpunished because they're not happening to us and we've let it be that way for way too long and have ignored attempts to change it. That's the crux.

It will take a change in people’s hearts. Unfortunately, that is not the overall social trend as we purge moral norms.

This cop was a bad person. A moral black hole. I don’t think that represents our culture as a whole like the left wing media presents

[LT4Greg]

hotlap, some people will refuse to believe the statistics that you quoted but statistics supposedly don’t lie!��

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

hotlap, some people will refuse to believe the statistics that you quoted but statistics supposedly don’t lie!��

Sent from toaster or something

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Yea, the whole resisting arrest and all is definitely what's happening to minorities with police. They're always resisting. Cops dont interact with you the same way they interact with minorities. Respect is earned. If you're part of a group that is being singled out by cops though, how much respect would you give them? If you're 3x as likely to be in the justice system as a white person because cops police you far more than white people, how nice are you going to be? The problem here is not how black people interact with cops. It's how cops interact with minorities. It's always been how cops interact with minorities because we've always had a racism problem with minorities in this country and cops have been given a pass on it because that's how the public feels about minorities too. But cops should be held to a higher standard than the public. They should be the best of us. Not a mirror.

As an Asian, I can say that's BS.

I have heard stories of some scummy Asian people trying to pretend they don't speak English so they can get out of a ticket. Usually cops will just tell them that they can get a translator here but it might take a few hours, and they all magically remember how to speak English. This is in Canada, I don't know how it works in the States.

It's less of the cops being racist and more scummy people forming a bad reputation to the group they are associated with.

Keep in mind that cops are more exposed to dangers. That doesn't mean they get a free pass on everything they do(Daniel Shaver is another example), but that means their decision making will differ from a normal person's. We all get red mist from time to time and it's scary what we can do. I would think a cop would be more vulnerable and may need more training against it.

Sent from toaster or something

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Isn't what you just described kind of supports my theory on the whole thing? That's the way I read it.

No not really. You were purposing that the Dealership was doing it for Insurance reasons.

I was trying to say that someone in the Riot worked there and knew where the Keys were kept.

[BMR Sales]

Originally Posted by hotlap

These are the animals.

I can't believe the Shop Owner came out with a 1 Iron - Heck, even God can't hit a 1 Iron!

There are so many things wrong with that Video, mainly people Videoing it and not doing a damn thing. What happened to all the Tough Guys that say "I'm Packing and this stuff will never happen around me"?

[mikeman]

Originally Posted by BMR Sales

No not really. You were purposing that the Dealership was doing it for Insurance reasons.

I was trying to say that someone in the Riot worked there and knew where the Keys were kept.

Same difference, no? The rioter knew where the keys were stored and the dealer make it stupid easy for them to access them. Not outright insurance fraud per se, but a little helping hand if you know what I mean.

Just like the news story I read on the business owner who stated he didn't have a problem with rioters burning down his business for the BLM cause. He didn't actually burn it down, but had no problem when it was done for him. That's kind of what I was alluding to in my original post.

[KenKat]

Lets revisit the statistics a little.

12.7% of the population in the US is black.

Death by Police Shooting

Year White Black %Black Deaths

2017 457 223 32.8%

2018 399 209 34.3%

2019 370 235 38.8%

2020 (so far) 42 31 42.5%

The numbers ain’t good.

I support the police and they have a very difficult job. They are in a very difficult position right now and I’ve seen a lot of situations where they’ve conducted themselves with honor and integrity.

But I’ve also seen the videos. Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with an air soft gun. The police officer drove right up on top of him, jumped out of the car and shot him within a few seconds. Or Walter Scott, who the officer calmly shot in the back when he ran from a minor traffic violation. Now George Floyd. And all the others. Some justified. Some clearly not. Watch the videos - something is wrong here.

People talk about white privilege but not being harassed by the police is not my privilege. It’s my right. My inalienable right, endowed by my creator. Take that away from me and there’s going to be a problem. Minorities just expect the same rights; why should they not as American citizens?

Destroying a car dealership is a criminal act but I look at it two ways. One, criminals do acts like this and that’s why we have police and the courts. But two, desperate people who have lost hope also commit these acts. That doesn’t make it right and they should be held accountable, but it’s just reality. When someone feels beaten down, they will lash out with whatever they can.

Which is it in this case? I don’t know, probably some of both. I don’t condone it but I try to understand what makes a person do this. Our country was founded by rioters and looters if you ask King George III but we felt rightfully justified. We even wrote it down:

https://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

I hate what I am seeing go on in my country, our country, right now. I don’t have the answers but I know I am tired of seeing people beaten or dying.

We have a right to peaceful protest. We do not have a right to destroy property. The lines blur between right and wrong and we are left to try to make sense out of it. To make sense out of ALL that has happened.

I’ve said a lot, especially about a subject like this on a car forum, but overall I’ve been trying to talk less and listen more. Put myself in someone else’s shoes for a minute or two before I go back to my regular, blessed and comfortable life. That’s all anyone really wants. Life. Liberty. Happiness.

[Cheap Guy]

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CBBQckR...d=rraq3j2mdr2x

[threetime]

Originally Posted by NeverDie

These cars belong to an insured corporation, is that really worth a life?

People condoning killing over property loss with no immediate threat to human life are the real "animals" here.

You sir, are part of the problem. You steal, I kill, simple as that.

[threetime]

Originally Posted by mikeman

Same difference, no? The rioter knew where the keys were stored and the dealer make it stupid easy for them to access them. Not outright insurance fraud per se, but a little helping hand if you know what I mean.

Just like the news story I read on the business owner who stated he didn't have a problem with rioters burning down his business for the BLM cause. He didn't actually burn it down, but had no problem when it was done for him. That's kind of what I was alluding to in my original post.

First off, do you own a business? Probably not, but it sounds like a no, as you are making no sense. This dealer will loose his ass. Insurance never pays 100%. Now his rates will go through the roof.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by KenKat

Lets revisit the statistics a little.

12.7% of the population in the US is black.

Death by Police Shooting

Year White Black %Black Deaths

2017 457 223 32.8%

2018 399 209 34.3%

2019 370 235 38.8%

2020 (so far) 42 31 42.5%

The numbers ain’t good.

I support the police and they have a very difficult job. They are in a very difficult position right now and I’ve seen a lot of situations where they’ve conducted themselves with honor and integrity.

But I’ve also seen the videos. Tamir Rice, a 12 year old with an air soft gun. The police officer drove right up on top of him, jumped out of the car and shot him within a few seconds. Or Walter Scott, who the officer calmly shot in the back when he ran from a minor traffic violation. Now George Floyd. And all the others. Some justified. Some clearly not. Watch the videos - something is wrong here.

People talk about white privilege but not being harassed by the police is not my privilege. It’s my right. My inalienable right, endowed by my creator. Take that away from me and there’s going to be a problem. Minorities just expect the same rights; why should they not as American citizens?

Destroying a car dealership is a criminal act but I look at it two ways. One, criminals do acts like this and that’s why we have police and the courts. But two, desperate people who have lost hope also commit these acts. That doesn’t make it right and they should be held accountable, but it’s just reality. When someone feels beaten down, they will lash out with whatever they can.

Which is it in this case? I don’t know, probably some of both. I don’t condone it but I try to understand what makes a person do this. Our country was founded by rioters and looters if you ask King George III but we felt rightfully justified. We even wrote it down:

https://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/

I hate what I am seeing go on in my country, our country, right now. I don’t have the answers but I know I am tired of seeing people beaten or dying.

We have a right to peaceful protest. We do not have a right to destroy property. The lines blur between right and wrong and we are left to try to make sense out of it. To make sense out of ALL that has happened.

I’ve said a lot, especially about a subject like this on a car forum, but overall I’ve been trying to talk less and listen more. Put myself in someone else’s shoes for a minute or two before I go back to my regular, blessed and comfortable life. That’s all anyone really wants. Life. Liberty. Happiness.

An excerpt from the article that provided the statistics speaks directly to the observation you’ve made (below).

There are 700,000 full-time law enforcement officers in the United States. The one that murdered George Floyd (Chauvin), and the three that did nothing to stop it, don’t represent the majority or the views of Americans.

The percentage of officers involved in the death of blacks is 0.03%. Are they all wrongful? Does that suggest that all Police are evil and should be defunded and replaced with vigilante justice?

...
As Heather Mac Donald relates in an insightful Wall Street Journal op-ed, blacks make up only a quarter of the total number of people killed in police shootings annually, a ratio that has held steady since 2015. The reigning canard, however, is that this 25 percent figure proves racism since African Americans make up just 13 percent of the U.S. population.

Ridiculous as this syllogism is (as we’ll see, it conveniently elides more consequential factors), it still puts the lie to the slanderous narrative that police are hunting down black men. Even if we ignore the fact that an increasing number of police officers — obviously including those involved in encounters with black suspects — are themselves African Americans, the percentage of black deaths from police shootings would be much higher if blacks were being targeted.
Police do not go looking for people to shoot. In shooting situations, police are confronting crime suspects, the majority of whom are armed. But given that George Floyd was unarmed, let’s consider unarmed people killed in such encounters. Such unarmed decedents, too, were twice as likely to be white as black in 2019 — i.e., 19 unarmed whites, nine unarmed blacks. As Ms. Mac Donald observes, this ratio is not stable (and there is some looseness in what the media define as “unarmed”): In 2015, it was 38 unarmed blacks to 32 unarmed whites.

The Floyd killing has been injected into the bien pensant narrative of innocent, unarmed black men murdered by cops. But the number of unarmed black men killed by police is vanishingly small. As Mac Donald notes, there were 7,407 black homicide victims in the United States in 2018, the last year for which final numbers are available. Assuming a comparable number in 2019, the nine unarmed men killed in police shootings would represent just 0.1 percent of black homicides.

In stark contrast, she asserts, “a police officer is 18½ times more likely to be killed by a black male than an unarmed black male is to be killed by a police officer.”

The media, the bipartisan political class, the academy, and the commentariat concoct their “systemic,” “institutional,” “unconscious” racism fiction by statistical tunnel vision: We must conclude that African Americans — in particular, young black men — are being targeted by police because the percentage of killings of blacks significantly overrepresents the black population. It makes no sense, however, to look only at the percentage of blacks involved in police shootings, as if it were the only attribute that mattered — as if it were the only attribute by which blacks are overrepresented compared to their percentage of the overall population.

While African Americans are involved in two times more police shootings than their percentage of the population would seem to warrant, they commit 53 percent of murders and 60 percent of robberies — well over four times their percentage of the population. The political establishment would have you assume this statistical disparity is caused by institutional racism that myopically beams police attention onto black men. But we know the statistics accurately reflect reality because crimes get reported by victims — a large percentage of whom are black (also outstripping their share of the overall population).

If you just focus on interracial crime, though, Mac Donald (writing this time in the City Journal) has crunched those numbers. “Between 2012 and 2015, blacks committed 85.5 percent of all black-white interracial violent victimizations.” This, she qualifies, excludes interracial homicide. Powerline’s Paul Mirengoff fills in that blank: “Blacks commit around 70 percent of black-white interracial homicides.” For this, he draws on FBI crime statistics for 2016. They show that, of 776 black–white homicides, blacks committed 533 and whites 243. Neither of these numbers, by the way, nor their combined total, comes anywhere close to the number of blacks killed by blacks: a staggering 2,570 — the overwhelming majority male.

The most dangerous threat to the African-American community in America is not cops. It is liberals. The United States is not institutionally racist. The political system, the criminal-justice system, and academe overflow with political progressives. The notion that they would tolerate racism in their institutions would be laughable if sensible people were encouraged to think about it rather than mindlessly accept it. Nor could we conceivably be “unconsciously” racist. Let’s put aside that to discriminate is to choose, and that, where it exists, racial discrimination is a conscious state of mind. The reality is that our institutions of opinion are so obsessively racialist, no one in America has the luxury of being unconscious about racism.

The African-American community is not a monolith. Like other segments of the American population, it is diverse and dynamic. The policies pushed by progressives damage the parts of it that need the most help. And the false narrative of racist police, which pressures law enforcement to back off from the communities most victimized by crime, is now destroying entire cities.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/...racism-canard/

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Except study after study shows that even when instances of a given crime exist equally across races, minorities are targetted and criminalized far more than white.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...res-the-proof/

There is no more criminals in black society than white society. There's just more policing and more enforcement. That leads to a cycle that causes a disproportionate chance of violent interactions because each interaction isn't starting with a clean slate in the experience of the people. The're not going into thinking this is going to be fair and just.

So, you're sending me to the "opinions" section to find facts?
Why not find actual studies, not "data (that) relies primarily on news accounts, social media postings and police reports"

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Just ...no. If this human nature was being applied without bias like you're suggesting, it would be everyone who is demanding change from how police are doing their job and it would have been corrected a long time ago....but it's not. because it's racism + human nature. Racism isn't human nature.

Are you trying to say that only one race is able to be racist? Or, more logically, there are racist in every ethnicity regardless of skin color?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Again, ignoring inconvenient stats. Black people make up less than 18% of the population and are multiple times more likely to be arrested than white people who make up 76% of the population even for the exact same offenses.

Where are the facts to back this claim up?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

As a white person, I dont fear cops in my day to day life

Odd. That's not what you said in post #43:

"Even as a white person, when was the last time you were driving around and felt relieved with a cop driving behind you? Even if you aren't doing anything illegal? I know I dont."

Which way would you like it?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

….not because i'm less violent and more reasonable during a traffic stop that black people are. It's because the entire interaction is less confrontational and violent. Guns aren't immediately raised. I'm not searched. It's a nice conversation and I haven't even gotten a ticket during those stops in over a decade. I'm not approached by cops on the street. My experience with police would not be the same if just my skin color was different.

I've experienced all these scenarios. And it's been done by officers of different races than I. Does that mean I experienced racism?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Crimes happen _all_ the time and the news doesn't cover them all. Inner city crime especially doesn't make the news because it's too common for the general public to care about. The only thing that gets into the news is the few that resonate with the public. For every post you get about a white woman calling the cops ...there are more where nobody had a camera on hand when it happened... or didn't know who the person was who called the cops. For every crime that the news reports on, there are others like it that do not get reported on.

So what you're saying is there is so much inner city crime it's common and yet black people are disproportionally incarcerated compared to whites.

Can you clarify this obvious flaw in your statements?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Did MLK and rosa parks really succeed if minorities are still not equal? Has the peaceful protests and marches really worked if it's been decades since them and taxpayer dollars are still going into the hands of government organizations that are statistically and objectively biased against minorities?

It's against the law for any of this to happen. If it does, individuals are punished. What do you want? A law that says "you must obey all laws"? Would that end everything? Yet, on the other side of the coin, you say some laws are "justifiably broken". To a racist, maybe they feel the same way....
It's just the fact that YOUR laws can't be broken.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Have we seen change in the police force for the better in the past 30+ years of publicized police killings of unarmed people? At what point do you stop doing what's obviously not working and start doing something that might?

And, if all these "killings" weren't justifiable it means the law was broken and people were punished. The 4 cops in this current case have been indicted. What more do you want? The people who allegedly committed a crime will have their day in court. How much looting is going to "set the clock back" and undo any of the event that occurred that day?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

The things that rioters damage is not what makes riots a tool for the oppressed. The effect riots have is not that damaged property owners start seeing the other side ..it's that the general public demands that the government do something to stop this and return order to society. That demand on the government by the general public is the entire point that riots happen because that demand isn't being made any other way that's been tried.

So, extortion, intimidation, and bribery are acceptable to you? This is how you feel that societies should change policies, right or wrong, all depends on who is the most destructive and annoying?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

17% isn't a majority to win elections. Even in localized areas, there are systems in place to disenfranchise minorities, to gerrymander, and to keep incumbents in power.

So, if this were the case, and the whole deck is stacked against them, how did the Civil Rights Act, or the Fair Housing Act, or the many other Federal and State laws get enacted? Did they loot and burn Congress?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Not to mention that you dont vote cops in.

But you do vote Sheriffs in...

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Many government officials and agencies are not voted into office.

And are required by law to be impartial. Want to stretch this any more?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

So even if minorities managed to get a candidate voted into some local office, they would have little power by themselves to do anything without support from a majority of their contemporaries.

Ever hear of these people?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congre...l_Black_Caucus

How do they fit in your theory that they have no power and effect little change? Or maybe they are power hungry and use people to retain and increase their power?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

If anything i think a lot of the initial damage caused by rioters were being attributed to white supremist groups and other groups who want a race war to break out and so join in these protests as a shield to do what they want to do.

I think you listen to the media too much. What sense would it make for a bunch of racists to go down to people they hate, befriend them and encourage them to break the law so they can turn around and kill them.

Does that make any sense to you?

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

But anytime you have a situation that is like this that needs to change and isn't, there's going to be damage.. And anytime those things are involving poor people, there's going to be looting. Some of these are race related and some just a byproduct of mobs in general.

Since this is "normal under these situations" have you offered your home or business to these guys to be looted and torched? Why not put your money where your mouth is and help with the change to make things right!

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

You can stop letting them get away with it. That's why we have law.

Any we do. Sometimes, just like robbers, we catch them before, during, or after the fact...

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

It's a white privilege to go the speed limit and pass a cop without fear. Most will go under. It's less about authority and more about the fact that the authority in question has the ability to ruin your life whenever they want to for whatever reason they feel like and that's more likely to happen if you're not white than if you are.

Have any stats to back this up?
Until then, here is a news flash.... Authority has that power, the media has that power, kids even have that power. And it's used on all races.

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

Yea, the whole resisting arrest and all is definitely what's happening to minorities with police. They're always resisting. Cops dont interact with you the same way they interact with minorities. Respect is earned. If you're part of a group that is being singled out by cops though, how much respect would you give them? If you're 3x as likely to be in the justice system as a white person because cops police you far more than white people, how nice are you going to be? The problem here is not how black people interact with cops. It's how cops interact with minorities. It's always been how cops interact with minorities because we've always had a racism problem with minorities in this country and cops have been given a pass on it because that's how the public feels about minorities too. But cops should be held to a higher standard than the public. They should be the best of us. Not a mirror.

So, the black cops who don't respect black thugs are "black-on-black" racists? What about Asian cops? Or Latino cops?