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Old 09-21-2018, 09:42 PM   #2381
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Judging by the MT test and the C&D test it seems to me that both cars are evenly matched. It'll come down to whichever engine (DOHC vs pushrod) is more suitable for whichever particular track the cars are on. I don't think it's logical to use a tire argument these days. For the record, the Mustang guys were the ones who started that nonsense. But any advantage that comes from tires on either of these cars will be insignificant or very minimal.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:45 PM   #2382
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Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
I could really care less if the Mustang won or finished a tick behind like it did at LS because the 1LE is that good, but after listening to how superior the Alpha chassis is to S550 and how Ford engineers just aren't as good as GM's it is just a bit satisfying to see the PP2 pull out a win and watch the salt shake out.
Granted I missed about a hundred pages of back and forth, but I don't remember reading that Ford engineers just aren't as good. They did after all turn the S550 chassis into a GT350. So we knew all along it could be done with enough tuning. So the fact that wide and sticky 'tired' Mustang runs a great time isn't really all that surprising. The Alpha is still superior however, that's not a secret.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:47 PM   #2383
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Originally Posted by FastCarFanBoy View Post
I could really care less if the Mustang won or finished a tick behind like it did at LS because the 1LE is that good, but after listening to how superior the Alpha chassis is to S550 and how Ford engineers just aren't as good as GM's it is just a bit satisfying to see the PP2 pull out a win and watch the salt shake out.
Well it was pretty apparent that the Alpha chassis was that much superior. I mean, look at what GM put out with from the start. Ford basically had to reinvent the entire S550 just to match the Camaro. So that says a lot. While they proved that they could, they also showed that they went skimpy from the start. Looking at what is being done now, there was no reason that the 15 GT should have been a 12.9-13.1 sec car. And there was no reason for it's sub-par handling. Ford went cheap and settled for less and figured they'd just belt them out for real cheap. And I gotta say I lost respect for them because of that. Now that they're back in the game I can say I am starting to regain some of that respect.
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Old 09-21-2018, 09:49 PM   #2384
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Originally Posted by metros11 View Post
Granted I missed about a hundred pages of back and forth, but I don't remember reading that Ford engineers just aren't as good. They did after all turn the S550 chassis into a GT350. So we knew all along it could be done with enough tuning. So the fact that wide and sticky 'tired' Mustang runs a great time isn't really all that surprising. The Alpha is still superior however, that's not a secret.
A few people on here DID actually say that. And quite honestly a few of the Mustang guys felt that way as well. But I don't think what was meant was that the S550 chassis could not match the 6th Gen at all. I think they meant that the Mustang could not match the Camaro from a performance and options perspective at the same price point and that the S550 chassis would come up short which it did.
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Old 09-22-2018, 12:33 AM   #2385
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Originally Posted by BlaqWhole View Post
Judging by the MT test and the C&D test it seems to me that both cars are evenly matched. It'll come down to whichever engine (DOHC vs pushrod) is more suitable for whichever particular track the cars are on. I don't think it's logical to use a tire argument these days. For the record, the Mustang guys were the ones who started that nonsense. But any advantage that comes from tires on either of these cars will be insignificant or very minimal.
This was written in the overview article for the MT 2018 BDC you also referenced in post #2378.

Quote:
Thanks to the super-sticky Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 tires that come with the Performance Pack 2, the Mustang GT has a ton of mechanical grip. But it feels clumsier and less composed than the Chevy Camaro SS 1LE that impressed us so much in 2016. "It's hard to have a lot of confidence in this car," Mark Rechtin grimaces.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2018-best-drivers-car/
I do disagree with the tire argument. Chevy could put R type tires onto the 1LE but chose not to. That’s not Ford’s problem.

GM did however design and tune the Alhpa chassis in a away they gets praise for any car that uses it. That does appear to be Ford’s problem. They took advantage of the low hanging fruit with the Cup2 tires (to create a ultimate street, non-track car ) but didn’t sort the whole thing out.
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Last edited by hotlap; 09-22-2018 at 03:47 AM.
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Old 09-22-2018, 09:54 AM   #2386
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has the PP2 and 1LE ever been run same day? I thought MT did a H2H with them , but now I cant find it.
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Old 09-22-2018, 10:56 AM   #2387
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has the PP2 and 1LE ever been run same day? I thought MT did a H2H with them , but now I cant find it.
Pretty sure the H2H was PP1 vs 1LE because Ford told MT the PP2 was not available yet. This was the infamous “cowboy racing” episode.
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Old 09-22-2018, 01:36 PM   #2388
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Pretty sure the H2H was PP1 vs 1LE because Ford told MT the PP2 was not available yet. This was the infamous “cowboy racing” episode.
something that irks me with MT is how they make videos like BDC or WGDR and possibly even H2H and imply that they are racing the cars at an event when in fact it is nothing more than a compilation of data they got from their track testing which could happen months apart under different atmospheric and track condidtions.

and then they pick a Kia Stinger, Alfa Stelvio and Civic R over a ZR1 as best driver's car and they start looking like click bait Youtuber's to me.
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:13 AM   #2389
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This was written in the overview article for the MT 2018 BDC you also referenced in post #2378.


I do disagree with the tire argument. Chevy could put R type tires onto the 1LE but chose not to. That’s not Ford’s problem.

GM did however design and tune the Alhpa chassis in a away they gets praise for any car that uses it. That does appear to be Ford’s problem. They took advantage of the low hanging fruit with the Cup2 tires (to create a ultimate street, non-track car ) but didn’t sort the whole thing out.


If we use the reviews comments about how the car feels vs the times it runs, that argument went on for weeks in this forum when the H2H picked the GT350 over the ZL1 because it felt better.

Is it the stopwatch that makes the car better or the feeling and excitement the car generates? I vote the later but most in here did not agree at that time.
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Old 09-23-2018, 07:38 AM   #2390
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Is it the stopwatch that makes the car better or the feeling and excitement the car generates? I vote the later but most in here did not agree at that time.
It's both actually. The stopwatch makes it the better car for arguing on the internet, but the feeling it generates is what puts it in most owners garages.
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Old 09-23-2018, 08:40 AM   #2391
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Originally Posted by newmoon View Post
If we use the reviews comments about how the car feels vs the times it runs, that argument went on for weeks in this forum when the H2H picked the GT350 over the ZL1 because it felt better.

Is it the stopwatch that makes the car better or the feeling and excitement the car generates? I vote the later but most in here did not agree at that time.
Context is everything. Especially when evaluating a track cars “feel”.
Quote:
From the driver's seat, the ZL1 is almost a luxury car. The ride is excellent, and the experience is fairly subdued...

The Shelby GT350R is the opposite. It's almost too much. Due to the superlative steering and sticky tires, the front end tramlines mercilessly...

Look, Chevy knows they left something out on the playing field. That's why the Camaro team is building the ZL1 1LE.

https://www.motortrend.com/cars/ford...gt350r-review/
I get why the GT350R was picked over the C7 Z51 and ZL1. It’s got to be immensely fun to rev a engine out to 8,000 rpm while the whole car shakes violently. Especially if it’s a free test car loaned to you for a week. I just wouldn’t want to own it in or out of warranty for that same reason.
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Old 09-23-2018, 12:03 PM   #2392
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It's both actually. The stopwatch makes it the better car for arguing on the internet, but the feeling it generates is what puts it in most owners garages.
That's why I ride in a ZLE. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
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Old 09-24-2018, 09:46 AM   #2393
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Well it was pretty apparent that the Alpha chassis was that much superior. I mean, look at what GM put out with from the start. Ford basically had to reinvent the entire S550 just to match the Camaro. So that says a lot. While they proved that they could, they also showed that they went skimpy from the start. Looking at what is being done now, there was no reason that the 15 GT should have been a 12.9-13.1 sec car. And there was no reason for it's sub-par handling. Ford went cheap and settled for less and figured they'd just belt them out for real cheap. And I gotta say I lost respect for them because of that. Now that they're back in the game I can say I am starting to regain some of that respect.
I don't think they went cheap with the S550, I think GM just caught them and just about everyone else with their pants down on how good the Alpha is. So if anything I would say it was shortsightedness on Ford's part. They didn't do a good enough job projecting how good the competition would be.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 09-24-2018, 11:53 AM   #2394
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Originally Posted by shaffe View Post
I don't think they went cheap with the S550, I think GM just caught them and just about everyone else with their pants down on how good the Alpha is. So if anything I would say it was shortsightedness on Ford's part. They didn't do a good enough job projecting how good the competition would be.
Bingo!!
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