[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

He said he likes his cars well sorted - I was surprised he mentioned the Challenger Hellcat in there without some kind of Mustang representative hence why I was asking "why no Mustang". The GT PP1 w/ MagneRide is a well sorted car (as I admitted not to SS 1LE level) - and will leave a Hellcat in the dust around turns. He also mentioned the SS 1LE as a potential option, and the PP1 w/ A10 is quicker in a straight line, so I got the impression he wasn't simply looking for massive hp only.



The Challenger Hellcat was on my list when I was looking at cars a couple of years ago. The Hellcat is so big and heavy it can't really put the power down on the street, and while it can lateral grip with the widebody package in a consistent turn, once you start tossing the car back and forth the huge weight transfer and high center of gravity is problematic. 4500+ lbs with 57% of it on the front tires isn't a recipe for RWD traction on the street, either.



If GT PP1 isn't enough, the 2019 and 2020 GT350s are an obvious upgrade. Quicker than a Coyote Gen 3 M6 GT by several mph in the 1/4 mile, better handling, and they stand out at every Cars and Coffee - even the non R 2019 my friend has gets a lot of pics at every Cars and Coffee event.



Like I said, just food for thought.

GT350 is a great car but yeah, it costs a lot compared to an SS 1LE. Besides, it has a very different personality compared to the Camaro. FPC makes power by revving, and it sacrifices low-end torque for that. Supposedly it's poorer than the normal Mustang GT. Just something to keep in mind.

IMO GT PP1 fine if it's used mostly as a street car and you are just having fun on the tracks without worrying about lap times. When I was at the open lapping day, there was a GT PP1. Held up just fine at that event.

I am not a fan of the Challenger handling but dang that Hellcat supercharger whine is insane. I rode in my friend's Hellcat Charger and that's when I slightly wish I have a ZL1, haha.

Sent from toaster or something

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Careful there. Some of the more hardcore Hellcat guys who also go to the track have managed to beat Corvettes around the track. Granted, they were not Z06s. But I think a few of them managed to outrun the C7 Z51s. Plus there are suspension mods to improve the handling of a Hellcat. And not for nothing, like I said, the PP1 GT is horribly mismatched against any of these cars and doesn't deserve to be on this list. If you said a GT350, then at the right price I would probably agree. But again, I doubt anyone here besides myself would have any interest in a GT PP1. Sorry, I know you're hardcore about the Mustangs. But it is not a desirable car around here.


Actually, I think you read a few too many reports without driving a Hellcat to see for yourself. Mine is 766 RWHP and I am on some cheap-ass tires. I drive in all conditions, even snow. On dry ground it might be true that you can't launch it at 4000 RPMs on street tires. But trust me, it gets power down sufficiently if you know what you're doing. An idiot who just mashes the pedal isn't going to get too far. Even in rain I can do some pretty decent take offs and it'll handle 80+ MPH very well. So yes it does put the power down on the street. And mine is a manual trans. Pretty soon I'll be in the 900+ RWHP range. I'll let you know how that works out.

Hellcat's beating even Z51 vettes at the track is the driver being that much better. I in fact lapped faster than a C7Z in my Hellcat at one track event, but I know i was that much of a better driver than he was.

I immediately dropped 6 seconds at Pitt Race when i switched from the Hellcat to the Camaro and my best is now 11 seconds faster than my best ever was in the Hellcat.

Without drag radials the Hellcat ABSOLUTELY does not put the power down well. I bet your 1000hp kitty with Mucho Machos will lose to a stock one on DRs in the 1/4. But you only internet race so we will never know.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

I am not a fan of the Challenger handling but dang that Hellcat supercharger whine is insane. I rode in my friend's Hellcat Charger and that's when I slightly wish I have a ZL1, haha.

It is out of this world!!

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Z OH 6

I own three of these four cars so I can tell you my experience.

The C8 feels the most confident when pushing hard through turns, its low center of gravity and mid engine make the car feel really planted, just point the front of the car where you want to go and it goes there. It lacks a little power compared to the Hellcat and even the ZL1 to some degree, a 600+hp C8 should perform very well.

The Hellcat doesn't feel like a huge car until you've driven something smaller, lighter and more nimble. In fact, the Hellcat handles far better than a 4400+lb car should and it stops well too. Where the Hellcat really shines is comfort, its roomy on the inside for all 4 passengers, trunk space is huge, and its great for taking on long trips. When it comes to drag racing, this is the best platform of the three. Not only did Dodge give you a good size blower to work with, but port injection makes it easy to add E85 or more boost without running out of fuel. Its just a Helluva a lot cheaper to make a Hellcat go in the 9's in the 1/4 than a C8 or ZL1. Once I got my ZL1, driving the Hellcat feels like a big heavy car. I can see now why people call them boats. You don't realize it until you drive something else and then get into the Hellcat, that being said, it doesn't take any of the fun or charm away from the Hellcat, its an experience like no other and always puts a big grin on your face when your smashing the throttle.

That brings me to the ZL1, the numbers say this car actually handles slightly better than a C8, that might be true but it doesn't feel like its quite as easy to throw around as the C8 but that doesn't mean its lacking either. It feels heavier than the C8 and more upright. Since this car has a blower its easier to make it quicker than the C8 for drag racing but not as easy as the Hellcat. I feel like the ZL1 is a good cross between a Hellcat and C8 in performance.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

I came from a Hellcat and I will say that it is absolutely a better day to day street car if that is what you are after. Z OH 6 nails it on the head below! If you aren't going to track it (i tried to track the kitty) there is no great reason to buy the Camaro over a Hellcat. This is probably the main reason the Camaro sells the worst in the segment also...



You nail the descriptions

I haven't driven a C8 and while 100% bone stock to stock tires it will win most of the drag races between these 4, as soon as you throw some drag radials on the other 3 that changes. Pulls the ZL1 about equal to C8 in the 1/4 and the GT500 and Hellcat pull ahead. The Hellcat almost shouldn't be driven with the stock tires it's so laughable. I never bought a set of DRs for mine before i traded it in, but a set of Nitto 555Rs is most owners first purchase "mod". And that's usually all it takes to get an auto Hellcat into the 10s.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Although I only have 2 of these cars since GM thought it was better to make sure YTers got theirs first...still mad about that...I digress...my thoughts on the HC and the ZL1 mirror the above comments.

But...from a modder standpoint, the HC can make much more power much cheaper and safer and on the stock blower. In fact we can get into the 900s on the stock blower. My goals for the HC and ZL1 are to get them as close to 1000 RWHP as possible!!

Thanks very much for the responses guys.

Certainly confirmed what I thought. I am very curious how the Tremec in the Hellcat shifts compared to the ZL1. I know they aren't the same, and the Tremec in the Camaro has received such high praise. Im not sure which I will like more, the Camaro is more in line with what I chase in a sports car but the Hellcat is so awesome, last muscle car, and the practicality makes a lot of sense for me. Pretty much will come down to the test drive I'm sure. They are both great cars but for different reasons.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Thanks very much for the responses guys.

Certainly confirmed what I thought. I am very curious how the Tremec in the Hellcat shifts compared to the ZL1. I know they aren't the same, and the Tremec in the Camaro has received such high praise. Im not sure which I will like more, the Camaro is more in line with what I chase in a sports car but the Hellcat is so awesome, last muscle car, and the practicality makes a lot of sense for me. Pretty much will come down to the test drive I'm sure. They are both great cars but for different reasons.

I'm still curious - you didn't answer my questions about why no Mustang...? Don't like them? That answer is good enough for me (i.e., if you just don't like the looks), but like I said before, the Mustang is certainly a better balanced and better handling car than the Challenger. Don't be fooled by the pretty good lateral acceleration magazines can obtain for the Hellcat widebody cars - that's the car turning at steady state. Once you start cranking the wheel back and forth the physics kicks in of sloshing 4500+ lbs back and forth with a high center of gravity.

Anyway, I would choose a ZL1 over a Hellcat every day of the week. Just my 2 cents. 600+ lbs lighter, wider rear tires, better weight distribution, and a lower center of gravity.

I do like the look of the Challenger Hellcat quite a bit (except for straight on from the rear, it's shape from the rear reminds me of a truck), but it's a 700+ hp car that only traps 125-127 mph in the 1/4 mile and despite what Blaq says, doesn't put that power down well. It's physics - poor front to rear weight distribution + a lot of weight + RWD = low traction (relative to a better balanced car with similar tires). Blaq's comment about Mustangs not putting power down well is off, too, at least based on my own experience with my car. My A10 PP1 (with MagneRide) 2018 GT puts the power down pretty well (when the street isn't cold on the summer tires of course).

Anyway, good luck w/ your search. I like all the pony/muscle cars so the more of them on the road, the merrier IMO.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I noticed no Mustangs were on that list. Any particular reason why? The Mustang GT PP1 w/ MagneRide is very balanced - maybe not as good a handler as the SS 1LE, but still very good IMO. And with the A10 it's pretty fast/quick with the Gen 3 Coyote and 460 hp. I have a friend with a '19 GT350 and while it's quicker around a track, I have no problem keeping up on twisty roads at sane but fun speeds. PP1 w/ MagneRide is certainly a much better handling car than the Challenger Hellcat. Just food for thought..

At this point I am pretty sure I want to go with the top performing manual version I can get of whatever manufacturer I buy, with no tracking intended. I'm not sure we will see many more cars like these and I am a manual diehard. I have been itching for a new manual since I sold my 1LE and replaced it with an M3 DCT(also sold). The Voodoo kind of scares me from a long-term ownership standpoint, but the GT350 as a whole is amazing and maybe the best looking of this generation.

In my view, and my wants, Ford doesn't offer anything with a manual to compete with the M6 ZL1 and M6 HC WB.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

He said he likes his cars well sorted - I was surprised he mentioned the Challenger Hellcat in there without some kind of Mustang representative hence why I was asking "why no Mustang". The GT PP1 w/ MagneRide is a well sorted car (as I admitted not to SS 1LE level) - and will leave a Hellcat in the dust around turns. He also mentioned the SS 1LE as a potential option, and the PP1 w/ A10 is quicker in a straight line, so I got the impression he wasn't simply looking for massive hp only.

The Challenger Hellcat was on my list when I was looking at cars a couple of years ago. The Hellcat is so big and heavy it can't really put the power down on the street, and while it can lateral grip with the widebody package in a consistent turn, once you start tossing the car back and forth the huge weight transfer and high center of gravity is problematic. 4500+ lbs with 57% of it on the front tires isn't a recipe for RWD traction on the street, either.

If GT PP1 isn't enough, the 2019 and 2020 GT350s are an obvious upgrade. Quicker than a Coyote Gen 3 M6 GT by several mph in the 1/4 mile, better handling, and they stand out at every Cars and Coffee - even the non R 2019 my friend has gets a lot of pics at every Cars and Coffee event.

Like I said, just food for thought.

All true points for sure. The Hellcat is not typically a car I would consider, but the wide-body manual is just brutally awesome and Dodge knows how to sell them with these power dollars. I love my Jeep Grand Cherokee, so figure I would like the HC too. As heavy as it is, I dont think its weaknesses will impact my use of the car either.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I'm still curious - you didn't answer my questions about why no Mustang...? Don't like them? That answer is good enough for me (i.e., if you just don't like the looks), but like I said before, the Mustang is certainly a better balanced and better handling car than the Challenger. Don't be fooled by the pretty good lateral acceleration magazines can obtain for the Hellcat widebody cars - that's the car turning at steady state. Once you start cranking the wheel back and forth the physics kicks in of sloshing 4500+ lbs back and forth with a high center of gravity.

Anyway, I would choose a ZL1 over a Hellcat every day of the week. Just my 2 cents. 600+ lbs lighter, wider rear tires, better weight distribution, and a lower center of gravity.

I do like the look of the Challenger Hellcat quite a bit (except for straight on from the rear, it's shape from the rear reminds me of a truck), but it's a 700+ hp car that only traps 125-127 mph in the 1/4 mile and despite what Blaq says, doesn't put that power down well. It's physics - poor front to rear weight distribution + a lot of weight + RWD = low traction (relative to a better balanced car with similar tires). Blaq's comment about Mustangs not putting power down well is off, too, at least based on my own experience with my car. My A10 PP1 (with MagneRide) 2018 GT puts the power down pretty well (when the street isn't cold on the summer tires of course).

Anyway, good luck w/ your search. I like all the pony/muscle cars so the more of them on the road, the merrier IMO.

In many ways the reason a Mustang has never made it on my short list is because until recently Ford only offered the 5.0 with the MT-82. That was a big problem for me, I do not enjoy that transmission. I like the look of the Mustang quite a bit actually, especially the rear. The Mach 1 looks good and great with the HP, the GT350 looks GREAT, and I really like the pre-refresh GT even and silver is by far my favorite color in the S550, perfect color! GT500 looks good, but no interest of course with the DCT.

The Mach 1 is the Mustang I would have built for myself actually, it's the manual 5.0 that should have been around a long time ago. Its a true competitor to the 1LE IMO, I could see myself buying either one without feeling like I compromised somewhere with either choice. If I could buy a Mach 1 for what i could buy a 1LE for or reasonably close, then it would be on the list too. Heck, Im definitely going to test drive both Im just not confident I would get a good enough deal to land me in a Mach 1.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It is out of this world!!

I was shocked to learn that it was stock. It's very loud and I love it.

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I'm still curious - you didn't answer my questions about why no Mustang...? Don't like them? That answer is good enough for me (i.e., if you just don't like the looks), but like I said before, the Mustang is certainly a better balanced and better handling car than the Challenger. Don't be fooled by the pretty good lateral acceleration magazines can obtain for the Hellcat widebody cars - that's the car turning at steady state. Once you start cranking the wheel back and forth the physics kicks in of sloshing 4500+ lbs back and forth with a high center of gravity.

Anyway, I would choose a ZL1 over a Hellcat every day of the week. Just my 2 cents. 600+ lbs lighter, wider rear tires, better weight distribution, and a lower center of gravity.

I do like the look of the Challenger Hellcat quite a bit (except for straight on from the rear, it's shape from the rear reminds me of a truck), but it's a 700+ hp car that only traps 125-127 mph in the 1/4 mile and despite what Blaq says, doesn't put that power down well. It's physics - poor front to rear weight distribution + a lot of weight + RWD = low traction (relative to a better balanced car with similar tires). Blaq's comment about Mustangs not putting power down well is off, too, at least based on my own experience with my car. My A10 PP1 (with MagneRide) 2018 GT puts the power down pretty well (when the street isn't cold on the summer tires of course).

Anyway, good luck w/ your search. I like all the pony/muscle cars so the more of them on the road, the merrier IMO.

Challenger has actual, usable back seats. Mic drop.

That said, the OEM tires aren't that good when I talked to my friend with the Hellcat Charger. He said whatever Pirelli tires these cars come stock with are pretty garbage. Another tricky thing is that, on the Demon, if you do get drag radials, your rear axles aren't gonna like you very much. I would think this applies to a modded Hellcat as well.

It has been mentioned before but the 3 ponies all have different emphasis. Challenger/Charger is a powerful GT car, Camaro blurred the line between pony cars and sports cars while Mustang is in between the two. But yes, not wrong answer to any of them, just depends on what you are looking for.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

In many ways the reason a Mustang has never made it on my short list is because until recently Ford only offered the 5.0 with the MT-82. That was a big problem for me, I do not enjoy that transmission. I like the look of the Mustang quite a bit actually, especially the rear. The Mach 1 looks good and great with the HP, the GT350 looks GREAT, and I really like the pre-refresh GT even and silver is by far my favorite color in the S550, perfect color! GT500 looks good, but no interest of course with the DCT.

The Mach 1 is the Mustang I would have built for myself actually, it's the manual 5.0 that should have been around a long time ago. Its a true competitor to the 1LE IMO, I could see myself buying either one without feeling like I compromised somewhere with either choice. If I could buy a Mach 1 for what i could buy a 1LE for or reasonably close, then it would be on the list too. Heck, Im definitely going to test drive both Im just not confident I would get a good enough deal to land me in a Mach 1.

Yeah, the MT-82 is probably the worst sports car manual transmission I have ever felt. It's just not a good transmission and I wish Ford can just switch to TREMEC in the future. Not sure if that's gonna happen.

Sent from toaster or something

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

At this point I am pretty sure I want to go with the top performing manual version I can get of whatever manufacturer I buy, with no tracking intended. I'm not sure we will see many more cars like these and I am a manual diehard. I have been itching for a new manual since I sold my 1LE and replaced it with an M3 DCT(also sold). The Voodoo kind of scares me from a long-term ownership standpoint, but the GT350 as a whole is amazing and maybe the best looking of this generation.

In my view, and my wants, Ford doesn't offer anything with a manual to compete with the M6 ZL1 and M6 HC WB.

Makes sense, thanks!

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

In many ways the reason a Mustang has never made it on my short list is because until recently Ford only offered the 5.0 with the MT-82. That was a big problem for me, I do not enjoy that transmission. I like the look of the Mustang quite a bit actually, especially the rear. The Mach 1 looks good and great with the HP, the GT350 looks GREAT, and I really like the pre-refresh GT even and silver is by far my favorite color in the S550, perfect color! GT500 looks good, but no interest of course with the DCT.

The Mach 1 is the Mustang I would have built for myself actually, it's the manual 5.0 that should have been around a long time ago. Its a true competitor to the 1LE IMO, I could see myself buying either one without feeling like I compromised somewhere with either choice. If I could buy a Mach 1 for what i could buy a 1LE for or reasonably close, then it would be on the list too. Heck, Im definitely going to test drive both Im just not confident I would get a good enough deal to land me in a Mach 1.

I also love the looks of the Mach 1 w/ handling package and that fighter grey w/ orange and w/ the handling pack Mach 1 wheels (basically the press car they showed). But at 480 hp, you're right, it's a ways behind the ZL1 and H/C from a power standpoint (obviously), and that Mach 1 handling trim will be more costly than a SLE with similar features. GT350 is a little closer in power (although still way down on torque and hp) to the others, but such a different animal w/ the high revving FPC. It's a solid 5 mph behind the ZL1 M6 and H/C M6 versions from a trap speed standpoint, and for the street, trap speed is what really matters (when it comes to acceleration).

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

I also love the looks of the Mach 1 w/ handling package and that fighter grey w/ orange and w/ the handling pack Mach 1 wheels (basically the press car they showed). But at 480 hp, you're right, it's a ways behind the ZL1 and H/C from a power standpoint (obviously), and that Mach 1 handling trim will be more costly than a SLE with similar features. GT350 is a little closer in power (although still way down on torque and hp) to the others, but such a different animal w/ the high revving FPC. It's a solid 5 mph behind the ZL1 M6 and H/C M6 versions from a trap speed standpoint, and for the street, trap speed is what really matters (when it comes to acceleration).

Those wheels look REALLY good! Ford has produced some beautiful S550's.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

GT350 is a great car but yeah, it costs a lot compared to an SS 1LE. Besides, it has a very different personality compared to the Camaro. FPC makes power by revving, and it sacrifices low-end torque for that. Supposedly it's poorer than the normal Mustang GT. Just something to keep in mind.

IMO GT PP1 fine if it's used mostly as a street car and you are just having fun on the tracks without worrying about lap times. When I was at the open lapping day, there was a GT PP1. Held up just fine at that event.

I am not a fan of the Challenger handling but dang that Hellcat supercharger whine is insane. I rode in my friend's Hellcat Charger and that's when I slightly wish I have a ZL1, haha.

Sent from toaster or something

The GT350 is a great car, but as you explained the Voodoo isn't going to give as much fun and excitement for me considering the car will be a street driven car and rarely if ever will it be tracked.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

It is out of this world!!

It really is. The sounds that thing makes are incredible, and from what I can tell make for an out of this world experience. That is really why it is on the list, all I have seen are youtube videos, but i can tell it makes for an amazing driving experience and everyone seems to love their M6 HC's.

[Martinjlm]

Originally Posted by ST1LE

The GT350 is a great car, but as you explained the Voodoo isn't going to give as much fun and excitement for me considering the car will be a street driven car and rarely if ever will it be tracked. .

The few days I had with a GT350, I had a BLAST! Loved the car. But as much fun as I had driving it, I kept thinking to myself “I can’t drive like this all the time. I’d get about 8 mpg and risk doing jail time”