[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I'm not convinced it can't. The Mustang has already had as much as a 5.4L DOHC, and FPC engines blocks are typically smaller than CPC, it's a matter of fitting the intake system.



The new Z06 (let's call it an LT6) engine is going to be in the neighborhood of 600HP, so performance will be there, fitment I'm not convinced either way, and cost would be fine, because the engine already exists, and moving more of them will lower the development costs making the engine cheaper. And since this would likley go in a Z/28, it would likely be priced a bit above the current ZL1.

If there were an LT3 engine coming, it would be in a much less expensive vehicle, so the budget is tighter compared to a Z/28-LT6 project.


So, the advantage of a flat plane crank is that it has an even 180 degree firing order which balances out the primary vibrations, and because of this you don't need any counterbalance weights on the crankshaft. This dramatically reduces the weight of the rotating assembly, which means the engine can rev very quickly from low to high rpms (go listen to the video of the C8.R engine revving to see what I mean).

BUT, this setup requires two separate intake systems including throttles (don't know why, though). Ford said they couldn't fit a dual intake, so they went with a single. But since they went single, they had to change the firing order, and therefore, had to add the counterweights back to the crankshaft. Which pretty much eliminates the main advantage of an FPC engine. So, the Voodoo engine, while it can rev pretty high, it's not as high as true FPC engines like some super-cars have, and it's peak power is pretty low compared to redline. It's also why it sounds a bit more like a cross plane design than flat plane. It's also why it's 526 HP and not 600ish HP like the new Z06 engine coming. So, while the Voodoo does HAVE a FPC, the setup and design is kind of in between an FPC and CPC setup.

So, this all leads me to believe that you are most likely right about fitment, except that an FPC block can be much smaller since there are no counterweights. Perhaps that can get the engine a little lower in the bay to accommodate a dual intake. So, I'm not really convinced either way.

But, trust me, if they can fit a potential LT6 engine in the Camaro, they could charge a bit more than a ZL1 to help with cost, and it will make plenty of HP. It's only fitment that I think makes this not possible. Oh, and let's not forget about what transmission would be mated to this...



So, the Cadillac engine has reverse flow heads, as the intake comes in from the sides of the engine, and the exhaust comes out in the valley of the V. This is called a "Hot-V" design. There are two separate exhaust manifolds mated to two separate turbos in the valley of the V. There are also two separate intake systems and throttles altogether. Take a look at some other drawings of that engine, it's pretty interesting. It's also the way the Germans have been configuring their V8's for a while now. They have some advantages, but some disadvantages as well, especially heat management.

So, while the Cadillac engine pictured is DOHC and has dual intake/throttle setup, it's a Hot-V design. So it's a bit of apples and oranges compared to the new Z06 engine coming, as that will not be a Hot-V design, nor will it be forced induction, AND it will be a true FPC setup with a smaller block.

The LT6 (if it will be called that) has plenty of room in the C8 for a dual intake setup, but the Camaro, not so much. That is the sticking point, I would think...

The mustang has actually had as big as a 5.8 DOHC, but regardless it was the same physical size as the 5.4.

It's not the block that will be an issue, it'll be the heads. A slightly smaller fpc block wont really alleviate that either imo. Big heads and intake system are the obstacle in a Camaro engine bay that was designed around the geometry of a ohv. The suspension geometry all benefits from the tidy ohv small block.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I'm not convinced it can't. The Mustang has already had as much as a 5.4L DOHC, and FPC engines blocks are typically smaller than CPC, it's a matter of fitting the intake system.

I already posted the picture of the Cobra R engine (5.4) stuffed in a WAY taller Mustang with no A/C a hood bulge and the rear supports cut away on the hood. The engine is huge and the ports have to be high to flow. It WON'T fit. I'm not buying no-counter weights = smaller blocks. Heck V8 don't even use the two center counter weights now on most applications. Drysump does give some room to lower the entire engine, but the drysump takes up a lot of space elsewhere. I already covered that the intake port HAS to be high for flow, yet you seem incapable (like Ford) to understand this and think DOHC = flow So I give up trying to explain it to you.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The new Z06 (let's call it an LT6) engine is going to be in the neighborhood of 600HP, so performance will be there, fitment I'm not convinced either way, and cost would be fine, because the engine already exists.

GM is NOT going to spend the money and time doing what Ford did with the Cobra R. A large free breathing DOHC won't fit and even if it did it would cost WAY more than just putting an LT5 into the car. GM ain't going to spend $$$$$ when they already have an engine that could fit making 150 more HP. You really need to get over this fantasy scenario, even Ford went back to an OHV engine for the truck. The Cobra R was a low volume, no warranty and A/C dud. The Z/28 while not a huge success, was at least purchased and raced by a reasonable number of fans (with warranty).

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

If there were an LT3 engine coming, it would be in a much less expensive vehicle, so the budget is tighter compared to a Z/28-LT6 project.

Lets see:
1) better flowing primary cats... not expensive and could be used on the LT1
2) better flowing longer runner bigger volume intake like the LT2, not expensive and can also be used on LT1
3) Bigger TB... no cost
4) Redesign CAI not expensive and could be used on the LT1, also add in a redesign duct to the front grill instead of a block of plate.
6) change pattern on cam: cheap and could be used on LT1
7) remove DoD: free, not used on the manual anyway, this would allow for Z/28 spec cams
8) E85 compatible: free
9) upping the displacement: basically free

So one can see some, most, all LT3 power additions could be used on the LT1 so maybe we would see
LT1 => 480 HP
LT3 = > 505 HP

GM had already showed that with relatively mild changes and keeping DoD the LT2 can make 495 HP.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

BUT, this setup requires two separate intake systems including throttles (don't know why, though).

Thanks for the long explanation failing to answer my question, why does a FPC "need" two intake manifolds? Makes no sense to me, hence my question. But we will go with nobody knows. Plus Ford did even do a lighten flywheel so the FPC setup is just a smiggen lighter than the CPC:

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

So, this all leads me to believe that you are most likely right about fitment, except that an FPC block can be much smaller since there are no counterweights.

Your making this up. The engine AFAIK has the exact same block and had to put the work "can" in there because in some Ford fairytale it happened. "much smaller" => LOL complete fantasy. Now drysump = much smaller and better road race setup hence it was used in the Z/28.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Perhaps that can get the engine a little lower in the bay to accommodate a dual intake. So, I'm not really convinced either way.

Since it would appear to me you completely madeup a FPC engine being "much smaller" , it would be easy to convince yourself that a DOHC NA engine could ft. It is near laughable to think an LT3 may or may not happen because of development cost, but a completely new engine of a completely new design making less HP than current off the shelf engines AND having a FPC is going to make it into the 6 gen goes from any sort of reality to fantasy land. Sure I like to speculate.

The reality AFAIK is that DOHC V8 are going FI and that means the intake ports are heck of small for both velocity (throttle response, MPG, smog) and packaging. I highly doubt GM would design a DOHC V8 for breathing and then adding a FPC for rev. Why? The engine would be HUGE externally, complicated, expensive, top heavy, have less MPG, and produce LESS HP than current engines already in production. Judging from Ford's FPC experience, and Ford has invested a whole lot into DOHC V8 over many decades, why would GM want to follow suit? I have no doubt in my mind that GM could just bolt in a LT5 ZLE and completely destroy the GT500. But GM does not play the Ford ADM game and that is one reason I have a Camaro vs Shelby, probably the biggest reason. If true cost to buy the car was used we would never have a Shelby discussion. GM is offering a warrantied track ready car, Ford is offering you can't race it, we won't fixit and we have to limit production so only FAT wallets that can pay ADM, can have the car.. Leaving every Ford fanboy on of course I purchased my Shelby for MSRP. I owned to GLHS back in the day, and they were WAY over MSRP.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

But, trust me, if they can fit a potential LT6 engine in the Camaro, they could charge a bit more than a ZL1 to help with cost, and it will make plenty of HP. It's only fitment that I think makes this not possible. Oh, and let's not forget about what transmission would be mated to this...

If a modern clean slate DOHC V8 is put in the Camaro it will be a FI setup probably twin turbo. The HP is basically unlimited for an engine point of view, the setup will be chassis limited. The transmission will be an A10 and it would be the only transmission. The would be no NA high rev big HP version of this as I've already showed you (several times) that such an engine won't fit. I would speculate that it would come in two flavors 700 HP and 900 HP.

I don't know where the article is, maybe a Ford guy can find it. But it dealt with why the GT500 could not go twin turbo and DCT. From memory and I am old, the DCT did not offer enough ratio spread for a twin turbo while a supercharger (due to lower RPM for boost onset) did. Secondly from memory, the CPC with it double shot of exhaust would cause spool flow issues with a twin turbo setup. The Ford engine is just WRONG for twin turbo, its ports are too big, the engine is too big externally and too small internally. GM's Blackwing is the engine of the future period.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

So, while the Cadillac engine pictured is DOHC and has dual intake/throttle setup, it's a Hot-V design. So it's a bit of apples and oranges compared to the new Z06 engine coming, as that will not be a Hot-V design, nor will it be forced induction, AND it will be a true FPC setup with a smaller block.

Lets say what you listed above is correct, IMO, note the word opinion. If GM puts a whole bunch of money into an engine similar to the Voodoo but bigger (internally and externally, yeah I know you have some fantasy about a FPC leaning to a "much smaller" engine), it will be like to original LT5 a low production deadend. No not Cobra R, failure but not a success. Look at the actually specs of such an engine:
1) tall, large, top heavy
2) complicated intake, maybe even dual TB
3) expensive to build
4) harmonic design issues all over the place (Ford's oil pump blowing up), not to mention Ford's inability to put a lighten flywheel on it.
5) expensive to warranty and / or fix, Ford just denies the warranty.

Vs benefit.

Oh it puts out 600 HP NA... big deal NA is not a design requirement. NA engines are just cheaper and for GM smaller than FI or DOHC engines.

I can understand why GM does NOT use the Blackwing engine in the Vette (too small in displacement). But to clean slate design a DOHC V8 for high rpm breathing on just ONE car (won't fit in the Camaro) would be a crazy waste of resources and design time / cost all to produce an engine with less HP and torque. While a compact DOHC V8 FI with high velocity intake ports could be used in the Vette, Camaro, Raptor like trucks, SUVs et all.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The LT6 (if it will be called that) has plenty of room in the C8 for a dual intake setup, but the Camaro, not so much. That is the sticking point, I would think...

You have my reply above. I can't see any reason for GM to do it. Who would buy a Vette (the only place the engine would be found), when a twin turbo version of the same engine with twin turbo is going to make 100 to 300+ more HP? The only possibility to my mind that happing would be:

Future 2dr Camaro based on the C8, limited in tire size and OHV V8, but having both an auto and a manual available. Basically a cheap Vette with OHV technology and transmission choices.

Then the base Vette would get a DOHC LT6 at 600 HP and two twin turbo options at 700 and 900 HP. OK I would buy that. I could see the engine / transmission type being the real divide between the Camaro / C8, given the uncertain future of the next Camaro.

In this scenario, the LT6 NA is a marketing ploy not a design / performance issue. You want DOHC buy a Vette. If you want cheap $60K buy a LT2 manual trans 7th gen Camaro based on the C8.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by oldman

I already posted the picture of the Cobra R engine (5.4) stuffed in a WAY taller Mustang with no A/C a hood bulge and the rear supports cut away on the hood. The engine is huge and the ports have to be high to flow. It WON'T fit. I'm not buying no-counter weights = smaller blocks. Heck V8 don't even use the two center counter weights now on most applications. Drysump does give some room to lower the entire engine, but the drysump takes up a lot of space elsewhere. I already covered that the intake port HAS to be high for flow, yet you seem incapable (like Ford) to understand this and think DOHC = flow So I give up trying to explain it to you.



GM is NOT going to spend the money and time doing what Ford did with the Cobra R. A large free breathing DOHC won't fit and even if it did it would cost WAY more than just putting an LT5 into the car. GM ain't going to spend $$$$$ when they already have an engine that could fit making 150 more HP. You really need to get over this fantasy scenario, even Ford went back to an OHV engine for the truck. The Cobra R was a low volume, no warranty and A/C dud. The Z/28 while not a huge success, was at least purchased and raced by a reasonable number of fans (with warranty).





Lets see:
1) better flowing primary cats... not expensive and could be used on the LT1
2) better flowing longer runner bigger volume intake like the LT2, not expensive and can also be used on LT1
3) Bigger TB... no cost
4) Redesign CAI not expensive and could be used on the LT1, also add in a redesign duct to the front grill instead of a block of plate.
6) change pattern on cam: cheap and could be used on LT1
7) remove DoD: free, not used on the manual anyway, this would allow for Z/28 spec cams
8) E85 compatible: free
9) upping the displacement: basically free

So one can see some, most, all LT3 power additions could be used on the LT1 so maybe we would see
LT1 => 480 HP
LT3 = > 505 HP

GM had already showed that with relatively mild changes and keeping DoD the LT2 can make 495 HP.



Thanks for the long explanation failing to answer my question, why does a FPC "need" two intake manifolds? Makes no sense to me, hence my question. But we will go with nobody knows. Plus Ford did even do a lighten flywheel so the FPC setup is just a smiggen lighter than the CPC:

Your making this up. The engine AFAIK has the exact same block and had to put the work "can" in there because in some Ford fairytale it happened. "much smaller" => LOL complete fantasy. Now drysump = much smaller and better road race setup hence it was used in the Z/28.



Since it would appear to me you completely madeup a FPC engine being "much smaller" , it would be easy to convince yourself that a DOHC NA engine could ft. It is near laughable to think an LT3 may or may not happen because of development cost, but a completely new engine of a completely new design making less HP than current off the shelf engines AND having a FPC is going to make it into the 6 gen goes from any sort of reality to fantasy land. Sure I like to speculate.

The reality AFAIK is that DOHC V8 are going FI and that means the intake ports are heck of small for both velocity (throttle response, MPG, smog) and packaging. I highly doubt GM would design a DOHC V8 for breathing and then adding a FPC for rev. Why? The engine would be HUGE externally, complicated, expensive, top heavy, have less MPG, and produce LESS HP than current engines already in production. Judging from Ford's FPC experience, and Ford has invested a whole lot into DOHC V8 over many decades, why would GM want to follow suit? I have no doubt in my mind that GM could just bolt in a LT5 ZLE and completely destroy the GT500. But GM does not play the Ford ADM game and that is one reason I have a Camaro vs Shelby, probably the biggest reason. If true cost to buy the car was used we would never have a Shelby discussion. GM is offering a warrantied track ready car, Ford is offering you can't race it, we won't fixit and we have to limit production so only FAT wallets that can pay ADM, can have the car.. Leaving every Ford fanboy on of course I purchased my Shelby for MSRP. I owned to GLHS back in the day, and they were WAY over MSRP.




If a modern clean slate DOHC V8 is put in the Camaro it will be a FI setup probably twin turbo. The HP is basically unlimited for an engine point of view, the setup will be chassis limited. The transmission will be an A10 and it would be the only transmission. The would be no NA high rev big HP version of this as I've already showed you (several times) that such an engine won't fit. I would speculate that it would come in two flavors 700 HP and 900 HP.

I don't know where the article is, maybe a Ford guy can find it. But it dealt with why the GT500 could not go twin turbo and DCT. From memory and I am old, the DCT did not offer enough ratio spread for a twin turbo while a supercharger (due to lower RPM for boost onset) did. Secondly from memory, the CPC with it double shot of exhaust would cause spool flow issues with a twin turbo setup. The Ford engine is just WRONG for twin turbo, its ports are too big, the engine is too big externally and too small internally. GM's Blackwing is the engine of the future period.



Lets say what you listed above is correct, IMO, note the word opinion. If GM puts a whole bunch of money into an engine similar to the Voodoo but bigger (internally and externally, yeah I know you have some fantasy about a FPC leaning to a "much smaller" engine), it will be like to original LT5 a low production deadend. No not Cobra R, failure but not a success. Look at the actually specs of such an engine:
1) tall, large, top heavy
2) complicated intake, maybe even dual TB
3) expensive to build
4) harmonic design issues all over the place (Ford's oil pump blowing up), not to mention Ford's inability to put a lighten flywheel on it.
5) expensive to warranty and / or fix, Ford just denies the warranty.

Vs benefit.

Oh it puts out 600 HP NA... big deal NA is not a design requirement. NA engines are just cheaper and for GM smaller than FI or DOHC engines.

I can understand why GM does NOT use the Blackwing engine in the Vette (too small in displacement). But to clean slate design a DOHC V8 for high rpm breathing on just ONE car (won't fit in the Camaro) would be a crazy waste of resources and design time / cost all to produce an engine with less HP and torque. While a compact DOHC V8 FI with high velocity intake ports could be used in the Vette, Camaro, Raptor like trucks, SUVs et all.




You have my reply above. I can't see any reason for GM to do it. Who would buy a Vette (the only place the engine would be found), when a twin turbo version of the same engine with twin turbo is going to make 100 to 300+ more HP? The only possibility to my mind that happing would be:

Future 2dr Camaro based on the C8, limited in tire size and OHV V8, but having both an auto and a manual available. Basically a cheap Vette with OHV technology and transmission choices.

Then the base Vette would get a DOHC LT6 at 600 HP and two twin turbo options at 700 and 900 HP. OK I would buy that. I could see the engine / transmission type being the real divide between the Camaro / C8, given the uncertain future of the next Camaro.

In this scenario, the LT6 NA is a marketing ploy not a design / performance issue. You want DOHC buy a Vette. If you want cheap $60K buy a LT2 manual trans 7th gen Camaro based on the C8.

Interesting thoughts.

I must say, seeing plastic intake on that Blackwing where exhaust headers are supposed to be takes some getting used to!

[oldman]

Here is the supposed LT6, I personally don't see GM building a good breathing DOHC engine when the trend it to have a high velocity intake port back up by turbo because:
1) it is a MUCH smaller design
2) makes for a much better FI engine. Better: MPG, throttle response, smog

To mind the only reason to build a good breathing DOHC is if the Camaro is going mid engine, then the Camaro would be limited to OHV and the Vette's base engine would be a NA DOHC. But this would be purely a marketing move not an engineering move. As a compact twin turbo FI engine will make way more HP and we are talking Vette
So it could look like this:
A) Camaro, OHV V8, manual or auto trans, luxury options, smaller tires, tame body work and affordable say $50K base
B) Vette:
a) Base: DOHC 600 HP DCT 70K
b) upscale DOHC twin turbo 700 HP DCT 80K
c) top shelf DOHC twin turbo 900 HP DCT 90K


You guys let me know if you think the OK breathing DOHC is going to make it into the Camaro. The turbos would probably touch the front wheels and the intake would stick say 5 inches out of the hood, maybe more towards the front of the car...

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

Here is the supposed LT6, I personally don't see GM building a good breathing DOHC engine when the trend it to have a high velocity intake port back up by turbo because:
1) it is a MUCH smaller design
2) makes for a much better FI engine. Better: MPG, throttle response, smog

To mind the only reason to build a good breathing DOHC is if the Camaro is going mid engine, then the Camaro would be limited to OHV and the Vette's base engine would be a NA DOHC. But this would be purely a marketing move not an engineering move. As a compact twin turbo FI engine will make way more HP and we are talking Vette
So it could look like this:
A) Camaro, OHV V8, manual or auto trans, luxury options, smaller tires, tame body work and affordable say $50K base
B) Vette:
a) Base: DOHC 600 HP DCT 70K
b) upscale DOHC twin turbo 700 HP DCT 80K
c) top shelf DOHC twin turbo 900 HP DCT 90K


You guys let me know if you think the OK breathing DOHC is going to make it into the Camaro. The turbos would probably touch the front wheels and the intake would stick say 5 inches out of the hood, maybe more towards the front of the car...

That's the supposed LT7, not the LT6. The LT7 is the twin turbo'd version of the supposed LT6, which is N/A. The N/A LT6 version is supposed to put out in the neighborhood of 600HP and will go in the Z06, the LT7 turbo version should be in the neighborhood of 800HP and will go in the ZR1. Then there is supposed to be some hybrid "Zora" model that will add electric and go over 1000HP. LT6 in the Z06, LT7 in the ZR1, and LT7 + Hybrid in the Zora.

Obviously this is all speculation and rumor, but so far the rumors have all been true.

Oh, and the Z06 is supposed to get active-aero too...

[s346k]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Oh, and the Z06 is supposed to get active-aero too...

didnt the chrysler crossfire cars have this 10 years ago?

[wnta1ss]

Originally Posted by s346k

didnt the chrysler crossfire cars have this 10 years ago?

Was that an electric rear spoiler? Because in 1990, I drove a couple of VW Corrado G60s at an autocross, and they had an electric rear spoiler. The electric motor would raise or lower the spoiler.

[Nightfall ss1le]

Originally Posted by s346k

didnt the chrysler crossfire cars have this 10 years ago?

Somehow I doubt it improved it’s lap times though. Lol

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

That's the supposed LT7, not the LT6. The LT7 is the twin turbo'd version of the supposed LT6, which is N/A. The N/A LT6 version is supposed to put out in the neighborhood of 600HP and will go in the Z06, the LT7 turbo version should be in the neighborhood of 800HP and will go in the ZR1. Then there is supposed to be some hybrid "Zora" model that will add electric and go over 1000HP. LT6 in the Z06, LT7 in the ZR1, and LT7 + Hybrid in the Zora.

Obviously this is all speculation and rumor, but so far the rumors have all been true.

Oh, and the Z06 is supposed to get active-aero too...

Yawn, it is getting tiresome showing you that ANY DOHC engine designed to breath ain't gonna fit You pretend you know what is going into a Vette's powertrain but you don't; I on the other hand fully admit to pure speculation. You have some fantasy that GM would spend time and money putting in a DOHC engine into the Camaro that produces significantly LESS HP and torque as the current getting old LT4. The LT4 vs Voodoo is done and the Voodoo got absolutely destroyed. The Lt4 features a much greater, nay a MUCH MUCH greater area under the power curve... but the Voodoo probably "sounds better". Now we jump to the GT500 engine vs LT2 and they are within spitting distance of each other, under most reasonable car performance conditions... What????? a DOHC supercharged engine vs a NA pushrod V8... LOL that is funny.

Sure GM probably is going DOHC in the Vette, but clearly there is a marketing reason vs power, weight, et al. I'm pointing out that the Blackwing is the current cat's meow in design and that features an absolutely tinny intake port (for all the reasons I listed already). Is GM "dumb" enough to put money and time into a good breathing DOHC engine for one chassis? I don't know. They did it before with the LT5, or will they design a clean slate V8 similar in concept to the Blackwing that is based around FI and a compact engine size?


Oh BTW the LT2 intake fits on the LT1 Camaro

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Let me start with the cost aspect first. Chevy is already rumored to be developing an 5.5L N/A FPC engine for the C8 Z06. If this rumor is true, that engine is already developed, so cost would only be for the intake/exhaust modifications to fit the Camaro and getting the emissions/economy certified.

AND, since the Gen6 Camaro program has been extended, there is time for the Z06 to come out in MY22 and a Z/28 in MY23. As for fit, going to a lower displacement means it would probably fit, but we can't be sure at this point. This would help keep the Z06 and Z/28 true to their N/A history.

Now, as for the oldman's idea of developing a new 7.0L engine would mean developing a whole new engine for just the Camaro (as I don't see this engine going into a Corvette). While possible, I think this idea is extremely unlikely for this reason alone. Personnaly, I LOVE the idea, but I just don't see it happening. Even a 5.5L FPC Z/28 is a long shot.

If there is one more big Hi-Po Gen6 Camaro, I think they will just put the LT5 in the ZL1 and call it a day (which I would love to see as well). But, they should stick to the ZL1 name if they do...

I get the technology sharing, obviously not a new concept to us "parts bin" camaro guys. My point is this new FPC DOHC engine will come at a premimum over LT1/2 engine. Additionally, I don't see how GM/Chevy would be able to package this effectively to fit Gen6 camaro as the width needed to accommodate DOHC will require more room than LT1/2 engines. This could also bring increased weight for DOHC architecture and I'd think some of this weight would be higher in the chassis which impacts handling. LT5 in ZL1 would make more sense to me. That said, I'd like to see NA Z/28 instead. If GM/Chevy put the current SS 1LE on a diet and drop ~150+ lbs, remove power windows, seats, mirrors, carpet, lightweight glass, add carbon brakes, drive shaft, ditch MRC for DSSV (I'm torn here because I do like MRC) exhaust (TI maybe?) and lightweight forged wheels...etc. As long as the car still came with AC, PDR and a warranty plus increase current HP to ~500 put Z/28 stickers on it (less weight than badges!) I'd buy. And yes I realize I can pull some of this stuff out of my SS 1LE myself. But Z/28 that does not make!

[LESS1]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Not really disagreeing with any of what you said other than AFAIK the 5th gen GT500 was never run at the ring. Ford doesn't release lap times, hasn't for the last 20 years. The only times I can find for Fords at the Ring are from 3rd party testers.

I do believe in a head to head match up done by one of the mags the Z/28 was faster around the track and I believe its faster around Laguna Seca jsut looking at old BDC data.

Frod doesn't release lap times because they are nothing to brag about, if they were you'd never hear the end of it. Instead they use more HP and sticky tires to compensate for chassis issues and keep up or inch slightly ahead of the competition... sometimes, not always. On a level field we all know how this plays out. One day Frod might figure out how to desing a world class chassis... maybe.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I get the technology sharing, obviously not a new concept to us "parts bin" camaro guys. My point is this new FPC DOHC engine will come at a premimum over LT1/2 engine. Additionally, I don't see how GM/Chevy would be able to package this effectively to fit Gen6 camaro as the width needed to accommodate DOHC will require more room than LT1/2 engines. This could also bring increased weight for DOHC architecture and I'd think some of this weight would be higher in the chassis which impacts handling. LT5 in ZL1 would make more sense to me. That said, I'd like to see NA Z/28 instead. If GM/Chevy put the current SS 1LE on a diet and drop ~150+ lbs, remove power windows, seats, mirrors, carpet, lightweight glass, add carbon brakes, drive shaft, ditch MRC for DSSV (I'm torn here because I do like MRC) exhaust (TI maybe?) and lightweight forged wheels...etc. As long as the car still came with AC, PDR and a warranty plus increase current HP to ~500 put Z/28 stickers on it (less weight than badges!) I'd buy. And yes I realize I can pull some of this stuff out of my SS 1LE myself. But Z/28 that does not make!

word

[Turkish01]

I don’t understand the LT6 won’t fit argument. How can the black wing dohc v8 fit in the ct6 and the tt dohc v6 fit in the ats v? There essentially the same engine bay correct?

[oldman]

The Blackwing has an absolutely tinny tiny intake port and intake manifold and associated head port which is also outside the the V. The intake ONLY works with twin turbo. To feed a much bigger 5.5 liter the engine would have to grow 30% or so and to get a conventional layout intake in the V, that could also breath would add another 10% or so. Ford 4.6 and 5.0 engines are HUGE, the 5.4 DOHC is even bigger. The only way to get a DOHC engine to breath NA is to raise the intake port and that makes the engine even bigger. The Blackwing uses FI (20 PSI) to achieve what essentially is mediocre power from a FI DOHC engine. 550 HP from a twin turbo V8 clean slate design is not very good. Then comes the excuse oh it is only 4.2 liters, LOL. Internal engine size is not a design criteria in the USofA. Lastly the Blackwing was limited in HP because of engine bay heat.... a killer for sure on a performance car with GM ready to race warranty. That what happens when you fill an engine bay up with a huge engine and two turbos. How many times has GM been bitten by a heat problem?


So say the new DOHC engine does produce 600 HP NA and GM could "fit" it into the Camaro, what do they get? The engine will produce less hp and way way way less torque than the LT4. What "race" or street driving will this new engine / chassis excel at? The LT4 > Voodoo, why would GM put a a slightly bigger Voodoo along with all the problems associated with DOHC high revving engines. GM would be LAUGHED at when this Z/28 DOHC would inevitably be matched against the GT500 and the ZLE, even more so if the LT5 goes into the ZLE (completely believable).

To my mind the only reason for a DOHC 600 HP NA engine is for marketing on a base Vette, assuming the Camaro 7th gen will be mid engine OHV with a choice of transmissions.
Up to 60K you get a Camaro mid engine OHV with choice of transmissions and NA
up to 70 K you get a C8 DOHC NA 600 HP
upto 80K you get a twin turbo C8 700 HP
above 80K gets you a high boost twin turbo C8 at 900 HP.

essentially the Camaro remains a "poor man's Vette", and finally loses the useless backseats;

Back to the Blackwing "The Blackwing was meant to differentiate the top-level Cadillac from the rest of GM's products.... the small-block V8 could fit the Omega platform.... the supercharged small-block... wouldn't fit the character Cadillac was striving for."
Which is essentially what I'm saying a DOHC V8 NA for the Vette is more about marketing than performance. It the engine does not have to have NA performance, it makes more sense to build a Blackwing type engine with small ports and FI (better torque, better smog, better MPG, smaller externally, more responsive), but alas GM would not have an entry level NA DOHC V8. If it were me, I would say:

Mid engine Camaro OHV your choice of transmissions.
C8 2021 DOHC twin turbo base 650 HP low boost, DCT with no thought of good breathing NA DOHC.
C8 High boost up to 900 HP, DCT


Here:
"Given Cadillac’s abrupt change of course, it’s amazing that the Blackwing engine even made it into production. The few examples of the twin-turbo V-8 were hand-built in Kentucky, at the Bowling Green plant where the Corvette is assembled. Each engine was constructed from start to finish by a single employee, one of just six appointed to this role. One source estimates that the Blackwing cost General Motors $16 million to develop—around $20,000 per example. You get the sense that the team behind it wanted to show Cadillac was capable of producing a world-class engine, even if the production run was extremely small."