[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

This would help keep the Z06 and Z/28 true to their N/A history.

Winning keeps the Z.28 in history and performance lore. Not some huge unworkable engine. Heck it could be a mean hamster stuck under the hood... or a rabbit. The Z/28 had been everything from a complete road race package 1st gen to a bunch of stripes on the 2nd gen(still like the late 70s look) to a base V8 package in the 4th gen. So the idea that it has to be NA is complete in-the-box thinking and only goes back a handful of years.... It truth it only has to SELL. So lets list:
1st gen Z/28 = complete road race package
2nd gen Z/28 = excellent road race and street package to end of life stripe package
3rd gen Z/28 = excellent road race and street package with a not bad stripe package
4th gen = base V8, the SS was the looks upgrade with "some" better handling not much...
5th gen = road race package
6th gen = anything that sells and hopefully can win some races, street, strip and internet.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

T
Now, as for the oldman's idea of developing a new 7.0L engine would mean developing a whole new engine for just the Camaro (as I don't see this engine going into a Corvette). While possible, I think this idea is extremely unlikely for this reason alone. Personnaly, I LOVE the idea, but I just don't see it happening. Even a 5.5L FPC Z/28 is a long shot.

stroking and boring an LT1 is not really a whole knew engine and I'm listing the two end points from mild 6.2 to wild 7.0. I think GM would do a cost and multi-platform analysis and find some breakeven point. I NEVER speculated on the likely hood. As even the mild version is unlikely till election day as smog laws will kill any large duration cam OHV engine PERIOD.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

If there is one more big Hi-Po Gen6 Camaro, I think they will just put the LT5 in the ZL1 and call it a day (which I would love to see as well). But, they should stick to the ZL1 name if they do...

I could see that in a chassis end of life last finally.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by oldman

Please, a LT3 engine from mild say 6.2 480 HP to wild 7.0 cam in cam 570 HP maybe feasible as the last OHV harah and actually be used in the Vette and Camaro.

But a DOHC is a completely new engine for the Camaro and there is NO cost justification for it as the chassis is already traction limited. Plus I'm still not buying this smaller size DOHC engine that "fits" in the Camaro. Ford had decades of turkey SOHC and DOHC engine designs and arguably the latest 5.0 is not any "better" vs the LT1 / LT2 / LT5 / LT5. Ford (which should be no surprise) did what Yamaha has been doing for 50 years now, raise the intake port to make power NA and that means the engine gets EVEN BIGGER. So if GM goes with a "small" external dimension 5.5 DOHC it will have a extremely compromised port design and that means it will ONLY be good under FI where boost makes up for port flow (still got 4 valves and variable valves timing). But is makes for a shizznet NA engine.... just ask Ford going back to what 1994 ish??? Just about the time they contracted with Yamaha to build their SHO V6 and V8s, heck they could have hired me for pennies on the tens of thousands of dollars, I've been porting and racing Yamaha heads since the Toyota 2TG and 3TG engines (early 70s). You want a DOHC to flow? raise the port.... not "easy" on a V engine, especially if you now have a hot valley and the intake is now down by the fenderwells. Look at the new GM hot valley V engines, the intake manifold looks like an exhaust manifold (no surprise there) it must breath like an two pack a day 90 year old great grand pa, the engine has two turbos and in fact the smaller intake volume is not a bug it is a feature as the velocity hence response is REALLY good. But to pretend that you going to get this thing to breath like a Ferrari just because of the DOHC moniker belies a lack of engineering appreciation.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/03...lly-announced/




What part of a 5.0 Mustang's completely filled engine compartment don't you get????? I mean really? It has been going on 3 decades now that Ford's answer is UNWORKABLE given the Camaro and upto the C7's hood lines. Here a Ford: (caution GM folks as this may burn your eyes as well as dull your wits an no A/C and no warranty and a hideous hood bulge. )

A lot of people still don't understand how much more space a little 5.0 DOHC takes up in an engine bay compared to the big 6.2 ohv. I'd take a picture of my two cars with the hoods up but honestly we've gone over this before and the pics and data are already out there.

Had a Subaru buddy come by this weekend with his modded sti, and he was surprised to see how big the 5.0 actually is. Just two different animals comparing DOHC v8s to ohv v8s. He was saying how much his little four banger made and how well it held up to the big v8s forgetting he has a spooly boy feeding his little boxer 4 banger lol

[oldman]

I always say it takes a lot of engineering to make a rice burning 4 banger waste as much fuel as a V8....

here is a cutaway of the GM intake port remember it faces outside the V on this engine. It is so low and flat, the exhaust port (in the valley) is visually SO much better on flow and even there it is BAD. This engine NA IMO probably breaths no better than an old 2 valve GM van from yesteryear. So look closely my friends be horrified. So Q.E.D. there is NO headflow in a modern DOHC head, that are squashed down for packaging and that means they ONLY work with forced induction where head flow is near meaningless (but 4 v and VTEC or VVT are useful).

[oldman]

Here is the Ford engine, not the intake is almost straight UP. Is there ANY further thought of a DOHC NA "fitting" in the Camaro????

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by oldman

Heck no, FPC DOHC = needless complication, a simple cam in cam can give all the 6th gen Camaro needs for a Z/28 like image. Even Ford has stepped back from FPC due to (assume) reliability and cost issues.

High revving engines have their charms IMO. Owned one and yeah, it's not fast, but fun as heck when it revs to 9000 RPM.

And I get it, it's probably not the best solution, but as others said, if the C8 gets the engine, it could(not guaranteed to) be adapted to work with a Camaro, while developing a dedicated pushrod engine for Camaro is a lot to ask for.

I dunno if cam-in-cam is exactly simple consider GM hasn't really tried it yet AFAIK.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

High revving engines have their charms IMO. Owned one and yeah, it's not fast, but fun as heck when it revs to 9000 RPM.

And I get it, it's probably not the best solution, but as others said, if the C8 gets the engine, it could(not guaranteed to) be adapted to work with a Camaro, while developing a dedicated pushrod engine for Camaro is a lot to ask for.

I dunno if cam-in-cam is exactly simple consider GM hasn't really tried it yet AFAIK.

I have a Type R, sleeved 2.1 liters, 9500 rpm + ride, here is me at the AutoX. I think calling a LT3 a (dedicated pushrod engine) is a bit of a stretch.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

High revving engines have their charms IMO. Owned one and yeah, it's not fast, but fun as heck when it revs to 9000 RPM.

And I get it, it's probably not the best solution, but as others said, if the C8 gets the engine, it could(not guaranteed to) be adapted to work with a Camaro, while developing a dedicated pushrod engine for Camaro is a lot to ask for.

I dunno if cam-in-cam is exactly simple consider GM hasn't really tried it yet AFAIK.

As mostly an LS/LT guy as far as performance cars go, when I first got my 5.0 it felt wrong just to go all the way to 7400 lol 9000 must be quite different.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

The 5.5 DOHC FPC would be a very interesting option to make a Gen 6 Z/28. The only problem I see with that is where does it fit in the line up cost wise and performance wise. Would have to imagine it's a fairly expensive engine and then they would have to add some other go fast goodies to optimize it's potential.

Obviously it would outperform the SS 1LE, but how does it stack up performance wise/price wise to the ZL1. That is where I see the biggest hold up.

Also I don't think we will ever see another 7.0L performance engine. IIRC that was the route they originally wanted to go for the C7Z06. They could get the power but couldn't pass cold start emissions so they went boost. Or at least that was the rumor floating around

Line-up wise, the last Z/28 was too expensive, so obviously, the cost would be closer to the ZL1 but still more. Also, I would guess it would be more track focused to differentiate it in the lineup, but not a stripper car.

It's a long-shot for sure, but there may be an engine in the parts bin, and Camaro is a parts bin car, so. Then there's the LT5...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Line-up wise, the last Z/28 was too expensive, so obviously, the cost would be closer to the ZL1 but still more. Also, I would guess it would be more track focused to differentiate it in the lineup, but not a stripper car.

It's a long-shot for sure, but there may be an engine in the parts bin, and Camaro is a parts bin car, so. Then there's the LT5...

Long shot for sure.

LT5 to me seems like the more logical choice for any new variant of the camaro

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

Please, a LT3 engine from mild say 6.2 480 HP to wild 7.0 cam in cam 570 HP maybe feasible as the last OHV harah and actually be used in the Vette and Camaro.

But a DOHC is a completely new engine for the Camaro and there is NO cost justification for it as the chassis is already traction limited. Plus I'm still not buying this smaller size DOHC engine that "fits" in the Camaro. Ford had decades of turkey SOHC and DOHC engine designs and arguably the latest 5.0 is not any "better" vs the LT1 / LT2 / LT5 / LT5. Ford (which should be no surprise) did what Yamaha has been doing for 50 years now, raise the intake port to make power NA and that means the engine gets EVEN BIGGER. So if GM goes with a "small" external dimension 5.5 DOHC it will have a extremely compromised port design and that means it will ONLY be good under FI where boost makes up for port flow (still got 4 valves and variable valves timing). But is makes for a shizznet NA engine.... just ask Ford going back to what 1994 ish??? Just about the time they contracted with Yamaha to build their SHO V6 and V8s, heck they could have hired me for pennies on the tens of thousands of dollars, I've been porting and racing Yamaha heads since the Toyota 2TG and 3TG engines (early 70s). You want a DOHC to flow? raise the port.... not "easy" on a V engine, especially if you now have a hot valley and the intake is now down by the fenderwells. Look at the new GM hot valley V engines, the intake manifold looks like an exhaust manifold (no surprise there) it must breath like an two pack a day 90 year old great grand pa, the engine has two turbos and in fact the smaller intake volume is not a bug it is a feature as the velocity hence response is REALLY good. But to pretend that you going to get this thing to breath like a Ferrari just because of the DOHC moniker belies a lack of engineering appreciation.

https://gmauthority.com/blog/2018/03...lly-announced/




What part of a 5.0 Mustang's completely filled engine compartment don't you get????? I mean really? It has been going on 3 decades now that Ford's answer is UNWORKABLE given the Camaro and upto the C7's hood lines. Here a Ford: (caution GM folks as this may burn your eyes as well as dull your wits an no A/C and no warranty and a hideous hood bulge. )

First, you seem to be under the impression that I want an FPC engine in a Z/28. I am not a big fan of high-RPM engines, but they are interesting none the less. So, you don't have to convince me their drawbacks, I agree. But the Z/28 had a high revving N/A heritage that Chevy has stated they would like to stick to (in the past). The C7Z06 was originally slated to have an updated version of the LS7, but they couldn't meet their HP target AND emissions. So, then went with the LT4 (and forced induction). I think if they drag the name "Z/28" back, it would be for an N/A application. The new C8Z06 engine could be the right part in the bin for a Z/28 to happen. If they went with an updated LT1 - new intake, exhaust, cam and called LT3 - they may want to use the Z28 name (without the slash).

Second, I am only speculating based off of what parts are in the bin for a parts bin car. There is an LT5, and there will be a new Z06 engine in the bin. One of these could find their way into a Camaro, and there are many possibilities. It's just a matter of putting minimal development cost into the adaptation. The LT5, I could see in an updated ZL1. The Z06 engine I could see in a Z/28. An LT3 (an updated LT1 with new intake, exhaust, and cam for 480ish HP) could happen for the SS and/or SS1LE or even a Z28 (notice there is no slash). The development costs here would be minimized by the fact that all these things already exist, they just have to be properly integrated/tested/certified. A 7.0L engine with DI, or going to cam-in-cam (which I would love to see, BTW) is going to be more costly to develop, and is not typically developed for a parts-bin car. That is why I don't see a 7.0L engine or cam in cam coming to a Camaro anytime soon. We would have to see it somewhere else first (and a much more expensive product, like Corvette or Cadillac).

Third, a true FPC engine would be completely different as it requires a dual intake and throttle setup (that's why the Voodoo doesn't have the same firing order as a true FPC engine), so the Ford picture doesn't apply. The Cadillac engine in your photo has a dual intake system, but it is a "hot-V" design, so it's apples to oranges as well.

But why speculate this particular point - if we just wait a bit, once the C8Z06 comes out, the new engine will be revealed. The spy videos sure sound like an FPC engine to me. Once we can see one, we can then deduce whether it could fit the Camaro. And then we can better speculate what might come next.

But, if the Gen6 ever gets another engine, it would most likely be a derivative of something already in the bin, not one that has yet to be developed.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Long shot for sure.

LT5 to me seems like the more logical choice for any new variant of the camaro

My first guess might be there is no engine coming.
My second guess would be an LT5 or LT3 (tied).
My twelfth guess would be a Z06 engine powered Z/28.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

So, you don't have to convince me their drawbacks, I agree. But the Z/28 had a high revving N/A heritage that Chevy has stated they would like to stick to (in the past).

This I agree with on 2.25 generations, I did own a Z/28 1969 after-all.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

I think if they drag the name "Z/28" back, it would be for an N/A application.

would agree

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The new C8Z06 engine could be the right part in the bin for a Z/28 to happen. If they went with an updated LT1 - new intake, exhaust, cam and called LT3 - they may want to use the Z28 name (without the slash).

Valid speculation

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Second, I am only speculating based off of what parts are in the bin for a parts bin car. There is an LT5, and there will be a new Z06 engine in the bin.

I'm pointing out that a DOHC engine won't fit, at least one that is able to make HP NA. Once we get to twin turbo, I don't see the alpha chassis handling that, nor the cost. Nutshell a DOHC that would fit can't make HP NA, a DOHC that can't fit could. Old Chinese saying if it can't happen... it won't.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

One of these could find their way into a Camaro, and there are many possibilities. It's just a matter of putting minimal development cost into the adaptation. The LT5, I could see in an updated ZL1.

The Z06 engine I could see in a Z/28.....

we would disagree here on cost, fitment, performance assuming you mean a DOHC engine.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

An LT3 (an updated LT1 with new intake, exhaust, and cam for 480ish HP) could happen for the SS and/or SS1LE or even a Z28 (notice there is no slash). The development costs here would be minimized by the fact that all these things already exist, they just have to be properly integrated/tested/certified.

A 7.0L engine with DI, or going to cam-in-cam (which I would love to see, BTW) is going to be more costly to develop, and is not typically developed for a parts-bin car. That is why I don't see a 7.0L engine or cam in cam coming to a Camaro anytime soon. We would have to see it somewhere else first (and a much more expensive product, like Corvette or Cadillac).

yep that would be my speculation too.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Third, a true FPC engine would be completely different as it requires a dual intake and throttle setup (that's why the Voodoo doesn't have the same firing order as a true FPC engine), so the Ford picture doesn't apply.

I'd take you word on this, as I can't rap my mind around what firing order has to do with a "true FPC".

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

The Cadillac engine in your photo has a dual intake system, but it is a "hot-V" design, so it's apples to oranges as well.

This I have no idea what you are saying. Are you saying there are two intake manifolds per bank? Don't think so, are you saying the port for each valve is separated... OK the port still sucks and that is my point. It has NO flow, only a turbo can force enough air through that tiny port.

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

But why speculate this particular point - if we just wait a bit, once the C8Z06 comes out, the new engine will be revealed

Cause it is fun during a pandemic

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

. The spy videos sure sound like an FPC engine to me. Once we can see one, we can then deduce whether it could fit the Camaro. And then we can better speculate what might come next.

But, if the Gen6 ever gets another engine, it would most likely be a derivative of something already in the bin, not one that has yet to be developed.

Which an LT3 could well be. The Lt2 makes 495 Hp and IMO it would be relatively easy to modify the intake and exhaust of the LT1 to mimic this making it an LT3.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by oldman

I'm pointing out that a DOHC engine won't fit, at least one that is able to make HP NA. Once we get to twin turbo, I don't see the alpha chassis handling that, nor the cost. Nutshell a DOHC that would fit can't make HP NA, a DOHC that can't fit could. Old Chinese saying if it can't happen... it won't.

I'm not convinced it can't. The Mustang has already had as much as a 5.4L DOHC, and FPC engines blocks are typically smaller than CPC, it's a matter of fitting the intake system.

we would disagree here on cost, fitment, performance assuming you mean a DOHC engine.

The new Z06 (let's call it an LT6) engine is going to be in the neighborhood of 600HP, so performance will be there, fitment I'm not convinced either way, and cost would be fine, because the engine already exists, and moving more of them will lower the development costs making the engine cheaper. And since this would likley go in a Z/28, it would likely be priced a bit above the current ZL1.

If there were an LT3 engine coming, it would be in a much less expensive vehicle, so the budget is tighter compared to a Z/28-LT6 project.

I'd take you word on this, as I can't rap my mind around what firing order has to do with a "true FPC".

So, the advantage of a flat plane crank is that it has an even 180 degree firing order which balances out the primary vibrations, and because of this you don't need any counterbalance weights on the crankshaft. This dramatically reduces the weight of the rotating assembly, which means the engine can rev very quickly from low to high rpms (go listen to the video of the C8.R engine revving to see what I mean).

BUT, this setup requires two separate intake systems including throttles (don't know why, though). Ford said they couldn't fit a dual intake, so they went with a single. But since they went single, they had to change the firing order, and therefore, had to add the counterweights back to the crankshaft. Which pretty much eliminates the main advantage of an FPC engine. So, the Voodoo engine, while it can rev pretty high, it's not as high as true FPC engines like some super-cars have, and it's peak power is pretty low compared to redline. It's also why it sounds a bit more like a cross plane design than flat plane. It's also why it's 526 HP and not 600ish HP like the new Z06 engine coming. So, while the Voodoo does HAVE a FPC, the setup and design is kind of in between an FPC and CPC setup.

So, this all leads me to believe that you are most likely right about fitment, except that an FPC block can be much smaller since there are no counterweights. Perhaps that can get the engine a little lower in the bay to accommodate a dual intake. So, I'm not really convinced either way.

But, trust me, if they can fit a potential LT6 engine in the Camaro, they could charge a bit more than a ZL1 to help with cost, and it will make plenty of HP. It's only fitment that I think makes this not possible. Oh, and let's not forget about what transmission would be mated to this...

This I have no idea what you are saying. Are you saying there are two intake manifolds per bank? Don't think so, are you saying the port for each valve is separated... OK the port still sucks and that is my point. It has NO flow, only a turbo can force enough air through that tiny port.

So, the Cadillac engine has reverse flow heads, as the intake comes in from the sides of the engine, and the exhaust comes out in the valley of the V. This is called a "Hot-V" design. There are two separate exhaust manifolds mated to two separate turbos in the valley of the V. There are also two separate intake systems and throttles altogether. Take a look at some other drawings of that engine, it's pretty interesting. It's also the way the Germans have been configuring their V8's for a while now. They have some advantages, but some disadvantages as well, especially heat management.

So, while the Cadillac engine pictured is DOHC and has dual intake/throttle setup, it's a Hot-V design. So it's a bit of apples and oranges compared to the new Z06 engine coming, as that will not be a Hot-V design, nor will it be forced induction, AND it will be a true FPC setup with a smaller block.

The LT6 (if it will be called that) has plenty of room in the C8 for a dual intake setup, but the Camaro, not so much. That is the sticking point, I would think...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

My first guess might be there is no engine coming.
My second guess would be an LT5 or LT3 (tied).
My twelfth guess would be a Z06 engine powered Z/28.

I would agree.

From the business side I can see where a Z/28 revival could maybe spark some interest in the Camaro and possibly have the halo effect.

My guesses

1. There will be no Z/28 or Z28 this generation (and I still disagree with that whole / non / thing but thats a argument for another day)

2. The Z/28 with a LT3 makes the most sense. Slot it above the SS1LE but below the ZL1. that is the only place in the line up I can see it making sense.

3. a LT6 FPC Z/28 would be really cool to see. It would most likely have to be priced inbetween the ZL1 and ZLE and at that point I just don't see a fit. Sure it could probably out handle the ZL1 but would it out handle it enough to justify its price and if it does does that justify the ZLE sticking around.