[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I disagree with the previously mentioned issues. Now in my case, I'm not 6'2" tall and fit into the car very good so no issues. GM/Chevy built a unique performance/sports car with max performance as a high priority. Which contributed to the overall design and shape of the end result. The resulting Camaro performance set the bar so high and is even more impressive when you consider the number of attempts Frod made to de-thrown the Camaro.

Not sure about you but I am focused entirely on Track performance first and everything else is secondary. In addition, I applaud GM/Chevy for the risk they took in the final design which ended up in the market place. This took guts and could have been a career ender for those involved if this risk didn't pan out.

Taking the suggested "design" queues into consideration and to me, this looks like the Cadillac version of the Alpha platform. As previously mentioned, compared to its peers the 5th and 6th Gen Camaro is a unique product in the marketplace. Given the herd reality we live in today I embrace uniqueness whenever possible. And in this case many more Camaro pros versus cons to ignore for those wanting the best performance car in the segment.

If I wanted a Mustnag I would have bought one. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to "constructive criticism" for a Mustnag fanboy about what needs to be addressed to make the Camaro better. Take your "constructive criticism" and go fix Mustang issues that still exist after multiple design/engineering improvements. In the hopes of finally closing the performance gap between the two platforms instead. One last thing. I cross shopped Frod, BMW, Porsche, and C7 Vette and decided on Camaro. I'm not what you would call brand loyal. When shopping for a track car performance and longevity in between the car/platform becoming irrelevant on track is what I shop for. Also, I try not to get too carried away with modifying my track cars, been there done that, and not interested in the headaches involved when you get too sideways with mods.

Same here. Track performance first and system engineered, not aftermarket modded. ZLE is perfect for me.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I disagree with the previously mentioned issues. Now in my case, I'm not 6'2" tall and fit into the car very good so no issues. GM/Chevy built a unique performance/sports car with max performance as a high priority. Which contributed to the overall design and shape of the end result. The resulting Camaro performance set the bar so high and is even more impressive when you consider the number of attempts Frod made to de-thrown the Camaro.

Not sure about you but I am focused entirely on Track performance first and everything else is secondary. In addition, I applaud GM/Chevy for the risk they took in the final design which ended up in the market place. This took guts and could have been a career ender for those involved if this risk didn't pan out.

Taking the suggested "design" queues into consideration and to me, this looks like the Cadillac version of the Alpha platform. As previously mentioned, compared to its peers the 5th and 6th Gen Camaro is a unique product in the marketplace. Given the herd reality we live in today I embrace uniqueness whenever possible. And in this case many more Camaro pros versus cons to ignore for those wanting the best performance car in the segment.

If I wanted a Mustnag I would have bought one. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to "constructive criticism" for a Mustnag fanboy about what needs to be addressed to make the Camaro better. Take your "constructive criticism" and go fix Mustang issues that still exist after multiple design/engineering improvements. In the hopes of finally closing the performance gap between the two platforms instead. One last thing. I cross shopped Frod, BMW, Porsche, and C7 Vette and decided on Camaro. I'm not what you would call brand loyal. When shopping for a track car performance and longevity in between the car/platform becoming irrelevant on track is what I shop for. Also, I try not to get too carried away with modifying my track cars, been there done that, and not interested in the headaches involved when you get too sideways with mods.

This is where your hard on for the Camaro interferes with reality and the point I am making. Sure, it's a good handling car. You apparently are a top 1% enthusiast. But, the Camaro will not survive if GM doesn't make changes. So much for you being able to get what you consider the best if it doesn't even exist in the future.

And for the record, like you, I'm not brand loyal (anymore - as I used to be hardcore GM until the 2018 Mustang GT). I choose the car I thought was best for me that I liked the most - just like you did. Before I considered and bought the Mustang in the fall of 2018, I would have never thought I'd buy a Ford. Before the 2018s I was most likely to buy a Camaro SS, FWIW.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

But, the Camaro will not survive if GM doesn't make changes. So much for you being able to get what you consider the best if it doesn't even exist in the future.

The Camaro IMO will either become a 4dr based on some sort of Caddi or Buick sedan. OR 4dr based on CUV kind of like the Mach E.
OR
2dr based on a cheaper C8 platform with V8, manual trans option, smoother body with smaller tires / brakes etc. Say $52K base, and the max will be something like the LT2. The C8 "Vette" will be DOHC with a turbo option, DCT only base starting at $70K.

Just a guess, so don't go kick my teeth in. Sure there will be changes. I don't see the current Mustang or Challenger surviving in current form.

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by oldman

The Camaro IMO will either become a 4dr based on some sort of Caddi or Buick sedan. OR 4dr based on CUV kind of like the Mach E.
OR
2dr based on a cheaper C8 platform with V8, manual trans option, smoother body with smaller tires / brakes etc. Say $52K base, and the max will be something like the LT2. The C8 "Vette" will be DOHC with a turbo option, DCT only base starting at $70K.

Just a guess, so don't go kick my teeth in. Sure there will be changes. I don't see the current Mustang or Challenger surviving in current form.

We can all speculate so no worries there. If the Camaro name is disgraced and becomes a 4 dour then it will be a Camaro by name only, sort of like the poorly named Mustang Mach E - NOT a Mustang.

I don't see the Camaro becoming a mid-engined car - I think that would be exclusive to the Corvette. I could see the Camaro being a 2 door coupe based on a 4 door CUV or larger car platform, similar to the rumors around the next gen Mustang.

Back in the day, model generations lasted a decade or more. i.e., 3rd gen Camaro from 1982-1992, 2nd gen from 1970-1981, Mustang fox body (1979-1993), 4th gen Corvette (1984-1996) etc. Short model generations are more of a modern invention to keep up with the competition - not just from other pony cars but from sporty sedans and "sporty" German CUVs. All of which are much more ubiquitous now than back then.

I would rather the 6th gen Camaro keep going to span a decade or 12 years (similar to the Challenger/Charger) rather than be cancelled in a couple of years. They could refresh it again in 2023 with some of the updates I described above to make it more appealing to the masses, and maybe then update the power a bit, and get another 2-3 years out of it until 2025ish. Hopefully it'll then be successful enough to justify a 7th gen.

Anyway, I like each of the modern pony cars and each bring a different personality and spice to the driving experience. Sports car centric (Camaro SS), Grand Tourer (Mustang GT), and straight line/big bruiser cruiser (Challenger).

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I disagree with the previously mentioned issues. Now in my case, I'm not 6'2" tall and fit into the car very good so no issues. GM/Chevy built a unique performance/sports car with max performance as a high priority. Which contributed to the overall design and shape of the end result. The resulting Camaro performance set the bar so high and is even more impressive when you consider the number of attempts Frod made to de-thrown the Camaro.

Not sure about you but I am focused entirely on Track performance first and everything else is secondary. In addition, I applaud GM/Chevy for the risk they took in the final design which ended up in the market place. This took guts and could have been a career ender for those involved if this risk didn't pan out.

Taking the suggested "design" queues into consideration and to me, this looks like the Cadillac version of the Alpha platform. As previously mentioned, compared to its peers the 5th and 6th Gen Camaro is a unique product in the marketplace. Given the herd reality we live in today I embrace uniqueness whenever possible. And in this case many more Camaro pros versus cons to ignore for those wanting the best performance car in the segment.

If I wanted a Mustnag I would have bought one. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to "constructive criticism" for a Mustnag fanboy about what needs to be addressed to make the Camaro better. Take your "constructive criticism" and go fix Mustang issues that still exist after multiple design/engineering improvements. In the hopes of finally closing the performance gap between the two platforms instead. One last thing. I cross shopped Frod, BMW, Porsche, and C7 Vette and decided on Camaro. I'm not what you would call brand loyal. When shopping for a track car performance and longevity in between the car/platform becoming irrelevant on track is what I shop for. Also, I try not to get too carried away with modifying my track cars, been there done that, and not interested in the headaches involved when you get too sideways with mods.

But how many car buyers are track rats? I would say that, yes, 1% sounds close.

In my case, my car is mostly a DD but I Autocross and I am considering some track days, but I am not the "in it to win it" type for these things. It's about having fun. I do take handling into consideration, but at the end, creature comforts like 2SS options and sunroof are important to me as well.

And as I said, if we can have the same performance while having better practicality, why not?

The sales doesn't make the car better or worse, but we have seen what happens to cars like this that appeals to enthusiasts but doesn't have the prestige to attract men with mid-life crisis/retires men with some money(Corvette) or "What's the difference between a Porsche and a porcupine" type of buyers. S2000 and Viper are good examples. Enthusiasts don't pay the bills.

As for Cadillac, I actually considered the ATS-V for a little bit. Deal killer is the LF4 engine. Never a big fan of these turbocharged engines because A. Turbo lag, B. Lower longevity and reliability compared to NA engines and C. Doesn't sound as good as V8. If it has the LT1, I would have given it a more serious look.

Sent from toaster or something

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by LESS1

I disagree with the previously mentioned issues. Now in my case, I'm not 6'2" tall and fit into the car very good so no issues. GM/Chevy built a unique performance/sports car with max performance as a high priority. Which contributed to the overall design and shape of the end result. The resulting Camaro performance set the bar so high and is even more impressive when you consider the number of attempts Frod made to de-thrown the Camaro.

Not sure about you but I am focused entirely on Track performance first and everything else is secondary. In addition, I applaud GM/Chevy for the risk they took in the final design which ended up in the market place. This took guts and could have been a career ender for those involved if this risk didn't pan out.

Taking the suggested "design" queues into consideration and to me, this looks like the Cadillac version of the Alpha platform. As previously mentioned, compared to its peers the 5th and 6th Gen Camaro is a unique product in the marketplace. Given the herd reality we live in today I embrace uniqueness whenever possible. And in this case many more Camaro pros versus cons to ignore for those wanting the best performance car in the segment.

If I wanted a Mustnag I would have bought one. I for one am not going to sit here and listen to "constructive criticism" for a Mustnag fanboy about what needs to be addressed to make the Camaro better. Take your "constructive criticism" and go fix Mustang issues that still exist after multiple design/engineering improvements. In the hopes of finally closing the performance gap between the two platforms instead. One last thing. I cross shopped Frod, BMW, Porsche, and C7 Vette and decided on Camaro. I'm not what you would call brand loyal. When shopping for a track car performance and longevity in between the car/platform becoming irrelevant on track is what I shop for. Also, I try not to get too carried away with modifying my track cars, been there done that, and not interested in the headaches involved when you get too sideways with mods.

I am glad you got the best track car for your money and glad you love it. Also glad you are one of the people that actually can appreciate it because it appears you push it to 10/10. Car works wonders for you as a track car and that's awesome.

What makes me mad is that the things that make it a no go for me appear to be styling based. Seeing everything GM has done lately, I have no doubts they could have at least given it a similar trunk /trunk opening to the Mustang and kept the same performance they have now.

[genxer]

One thing I don't get is people that back the Euro-gentrified new Mustangs not realizing they've tacitly given Ford the green light for a Mach E. It's just merely a noticeable next step towards something very shallowly a Mustang. They both reek.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

This is where your hard on for the Camaro interferes with reality and the point I am making. Sure, it's a good handling car. You apparently are a top 1% enthusiast. But, the Camaro will not survive if GM doesn't make changes. So much for you being able to get what you consider the best if it doesn't even exist in the future.

And for the record, like you, I'm not brand loyal (anymore - as I used to be hardcore GM until the 2018 Mustang GT). I choose the car I thought was best for me that I liked the most - just like you did. Before I considered and bought the Mustang in the fall of 2018, I would have never thought I'd buy a Ford. Before the 2018s I was most likely to buy a Camaro SS, FWIW.

You seem to be completely missing how Chevy and GM see the Camaro to the portfolio of vehicles. The Camaro is a parts-bin car, and it is a vehicle that will get produced to help fill a factory to the maximum capacity. Cadillac has a platform (Alpha) that they use for the ATS and CTS. Those two cars did not sell enough (as well as other vehicles) to maximize the capacity of the factory these cars were built in. Therefore, the reached into the parts bin and created a Camaro to fill the gap.

What most folks don't realize, is that if the Cadillac sold BETTER and the factory was at maximum output, there may have not been a 6th Gen Camaro, as it wouldn't be needed, and they wouldn't build a new factory for just one low selling niche vehicle...

Fact is, Camaro's existence today and in the future, depends more on an available chassis, and a need to add output to a factory. As long as those two exist, there will probably be a Camaro (probably because they could potentially fill the gap with a different vehicle instead of the Camaro).

As for the future, I think Cadillac was going in a different direction and there is an AlphaII chasis. I believe (and this is pure conjecture here) the original plan was for the Gen7 Camaro to be on the AlphaII platform, but things changed drastically at Cadillac AND GM overall.

Cadillac is losing even more sales (even before the virus) as more folks shifted away from cars into SUVs, and Cadillac's luxury is not up to par with the Germans etc... Plus, GM (and everybody else) put a ton of development resources into electric vehicles. This has effected the Camaro timeline and resource availability. Hence, Camaro development is non-existent as far as we know.

Now, I also believe (and again, this is purely conjecture on my part) that the Camaro will skip the AlphaII platform and go directly to the VSS-R platform. Turns out, all manufacturers are in the process or drastically reducing the number of platforms to just a handful that are more flexible (can cover a wider range of vehicles), and GM is going to a total of four. Therefore, Camaro will have to wait a while longer for an available chassis, and development engineers to be available to work on it (since they are busy with electric vehicles). Hence, the extension of the life-cycle of the current Camaro.

But again, I am sure this is all up in the air right now at GM. They have to finish the initial push for EVs, Cadillac has to figure out where they are going (they seem lost right now), and then the bean counters have to see if there is a need to produce a Camaro alongside somthing(s) by Cadillac, in a factory that has some spare capacity. There is no way GM can even think about this right now, let alone make a decision. So, the Gen6 Camaro will hang on for many more years than were initially planned.

And by the way, much (but not all) of this story is ALSO happening at Ford with the Mustang. Ford has extended the life of the S550 for many of the same reasons. But the main difference, is that the Mustang is Ford's halo sports car, so it has to sell big, and therefore appeal to the masses (which is why it has a seating position and trunk opening of and Accord). Chevy's halo car is the Corvette (and it is getting a TON of attention). So, the Camaro doesn't have these practicality constraints holding it back like the Mustang.

AND, let's not forget that with the Corvette going mid-engine, there is no need to sand-bag with the Camaro so it won't get too close to Corvette performance (which Chevy seemed to stop doing with the Gen6 anyway). AND, Chevy may feel the Camaro may have more interest as the only front-engine sports car from Chevy. Also, there were some rumors that Corvette would be spun into it's own brand. So, the Camaro may become more of a halo car in the future.

So, let's stop with all the "Chevy better make a better trunk opening or Camaro will go away" crap. That's just not how things work. Ford will likely keep producing the Mustang as a halo until it just won't sell. And they will have to follow the market wherever it goes. Including making tons of compromises for practicality that make it a worse performing vehicle. Which may include and electric Mustang, a four door Mustang, a Mustang on an SUV platform... If this suits your needs, then I am glad you chose the Mustang. But for the rest of us who want performance, and don't need a big trunk opening, were good. We don't need anymore visibility or trunk opening lectures. That's not in any way, shape, or form going to be what determines if there will be a Gen7 Camaro or not.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

You seem to be completely missing how Chevy and GM see the Camaro to the portfolio of vehicles. The Camaro is a parts-bin car, and it is a vehicle that will get produced to help fill a factory to the maximum capacity. Cadillac has a platform (Alpha) that they use for the ATS and CTS. Those two cars did not sell enough (as well as other vehicles) to maximize the capacity of the factory these cars were built in. Therefore, the reached into the parts bin and created a Camaro to fill the gap.

What most folks don't realize, is that if the Cadillac sold BETTER and the factory was at maximum output, there may have not been a 6th Gen Camaro, as it wouldn't be needed, and they wouldn't build a new factory for just one low selling niche vehicle...

Fact is, Camaro's existence today and in the future, depends more on an available chassis, and a need to add output to a factory. As long as those two exist, there will probably be a Camaro (probably because they could potentially fill the gap with a different vehicle instead of the Camaro).

As for the future, I think Cadillac was going in a different direction and there is an AlphaII chasis. I believe (and this is pure conjecture here) the original plan was for the Gen7 Camaro to be on the AlphaII platform, but things changed drastically at Cadillac AND GM overall.

Cadillac is losing even more sales (even before the virus) as more folks shifted away from cars into SUVs, and Cadillac's luxury is not up to par with the Germans etc... Plus, GM (and everybody else) put a ton of development resources into electric vehicles. This has effected the Camaro timeline and resource availability. Hence, Camaro development is non-existent as far as we know.

Now, I also believe (and again, this is purely conjecture on my part) that the Camaro will skip the AlphaII platform and go directly to the VSS-R platform. Turns out, all manufacturers are in the process or drastically reducing the number of platforms to just a handful that are more flexible (can cover a wider range of vehicles), and GM is going to a total of four. Therefore, Camaro will have to wait a while longer for an available chassis, and development engineers to be available to work on it (since they are busy with electric vehicles). Hence, the extension of the life-cycle of the current Camaro.

But again, I am sure this is all up in the air right now at GM. They have to finish the initial push for EVs, Cadillac has to figure out where they are going (they seem lost right now), and then the bean counters have to see if there is a need to produce a Camaro alongside somthing(s) by Cadillac, in a factory that has some spare capacity. There is no way GM can even think about this right now, let alone make a decision. So, the Gen6 Camaro will hang on for many more years than were initially planned.

And by the way, much (but not all) of this story is ALSO happening at Ford with the Mustang. Ford has extended the life of the S550 for many of the same reasons. But the main difference, is that the Mustang is Ford's halo sports car, so it has to sell big, and therefore appeal to the masses (which is why it has a seating position and trunk opening of and Accord). Chevy's halo car is the Corvette (and it is getting a TON of attention). So, the Camaro doesn't have these practicality constraints holding it back like the Mustang.

AND, let's not forget that with the Corvette going mid-engine, there is no need to sand-bag with the Camaro so it won't get too close to Corvette performance (which Chevy seemed to stop doing with the Gen6 anyway). AND, Chevy may feel the Camaro may have more interest as the only front-engine sports car from Chevy. Also, there were some rumors that Corvette would be spun into it's own brand. So, the Camaro may become more of a halo car in the future.

So, let's stop with all the "Chevy better make a better trunk opening or Camaro will go away" crap. That's just not how things work. Ford will likely keep producing the Mustang as a halo until it just won't sell. And they will have to follow the market wherever it goes. Including making tons of compromises for practicality that make it a worse performing vehicle. Which may include and electric Mustang, a four door Mustang, a Mustang on an SUV platform... If this suits your needs, then I am glad you chose the Mustang. But for the rest of us who want performance, and don't need a big trunk opening, were good. We don't need anymore visibility or trunk opening lectures. That's not in any way, shape, or form going to be what determines if there will be a Gen7 Camaro or not.

Never realized any of this, but makes sense.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

You seem to be completely missing how Chevy and GM see the Camaro to the portfolio of vehicles. The Camaro is a parts-bin car, and it is a vehicle that will get produced to help fill a factory to the maximum capacity. Cadillac has a platform (Alpha) that they use for the ATS and CTS. Those two cars did not sell enough (as well as other vehicles) to maximize the capacity of the factory these cars were built in. Therefore, the reached into the parts bin and created a Camaro to fill the gap.

What most folks don't realize, is that if the Cadillac sold BETTER and the factory was at maximum output, there may have not been a 6th Gen Camaro, as it wouldn't be needed, and they wouldn't build a new factory for just one low selling niche vehicle...

Fact is, Camaro's existence today and in the future, depends more on an available chassis, and a need to add output to a factory. As long as those two exist, there will probably be a Camaro (probably because they could potentially fill the gap with a different vehicle instead of the Camaro).

As for the future, I think Cadillac was going in a different direction and there is an AlphaII chasis. I believe (and this is pure conjecture here) the original plan was for the Gen7 Camaro to be on the AlphaII platform, but things changed drastically at Cadillac AND GM overall.

Cadillac is losing even more sales (even before the virus) as more folks shifted away from cars into SUVs, and Cadillac's luxury is not up to par with the Germans etc... Plus, GM (and everybody else) put a ton of development resources into electric vehicles. This has effected the Camaro timeline and resource availability. Hence, Camaro development is non-existent as far as we know.

Now, I also believe (and again, this is purely conjecture on my part) that the Camaro will skip the AlphaII platform and go directly to the VSS-R platform. Turns out, all manufacturers are in the process or drastically reducing the number of platforms to just a handful that are more flexible (can cover a wider range of vehicles), and GM is going to a total of four. Therefore, Camaro will have to wait a while longer for an available chassis, and development engineers to be available to work on it (since they are busy with electric vehicles). Hence, the extension of the life-cycle of the current Camaro.

But again, I am sure this is all up in the air right now at GM. They have to finish the initial push for EVs, Cadillac has to figure out where they are going (they seem lost right now), and then the bean counters have to see if there is a need to produce a Camaro alongside somthing(s) by Cadillac, in a factory that has some spare capacity. There is no way GM can even think about this right now, let alone make a decision. So, the Gen6 Camaro will hang on for many more years than were initially planned.

And by the way, much (but not all) of this story is ALSO happening at Ford with the Mustang. Ford has extended the life of the S550 for many of the same reasons. But the main difference, is that the Mustang is Ford's halo sports car, so it has to sell big, and therefore appeal to the masses (which is why it has a seating position and trunk opening of and Accord). Chevy's halo car is the Corvette (and it is getting a TON of attention). So, the Camaro doesn't have these practicality constraints holding it back like the Mustang.

AND, let's not forget that with the Corvette going mid-engine, there is no need to sand-bag with the Camaro so it won't get too close to Corvette performance (which Chevy seemed to stop doing with the Gen6 anyway). AND, Chevy may feel the Camaro may have more interest as the only front-engine sports car from Chevy. Also, there were some rumors that Corvette would be spun into it's own brand. So, the Camaro may become more of a halo car in the future.

So, let's stop with all the "Chevy better make a better trunk opening or Camaro will go away" crap. That's just not how things work. Ford will likely keep producing the Mustang as a halo until it just won't sell. And they will have to follow the market wherever it goes. Including making tons of compromises for practicality that make it a worse performing vehicle. Which may include and electric Mustang, a four door Mustang, a Mustang on an SUV platform... If this suits your needs, then I am glad you chose the Mustang. But for the rest of us who want performance, and don't need a big trunk opening, were good. We don't need anymore visibility or trunk opening lectures. That's not in any way, shape, or form going to be what determines if there will be a Gen7 Camaro or not.

Alot of what you said is true.



Currently the Camaro exists to create volume at the factory to keep it open.

It is going to need to be able to appeal to a wider base than just the enthusiast to survive. about 40% of camaros sold are V-8s and what percentage of those people actually push it to the limit or use it all out 10% if that?(guessing there) Is that really a good business strategy to focus on that small of a market? All I am saying is if the car exists to create volume it would be better off appealing to more people than a very small % of the market.

Now the otherside of this is that if Camaro doesn't need to bear the bulk of volume if/when it goes to VSS-R then they can go about whatever way they want. That is the big question though. If Camaro needs to play the role it did on Alpha then it will need to appeal to a wider base.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Alot of what you said is true.



Currently the Camaro exists to create volume at the factory to keep it open.

It is going to need to be able to appeal to a wider base than just the enthusiast to survive. about 40% of camaros sold are V-8s and what percentage of those people actually push it to the limit or use it all out 10% if that?(guessing there) Is that really a good business strategy to focus on that small of a market? All I am saying is if the car exists to create volume it would be better off appealing to more people than a very small % of the market.

Now the otherside of this is that if Camaro doesn't need to bear the bulk of volume if/when it goes to VSS-R then they can go about whatever way they want. That is the big question though. If Camaro needs to play the role it did on Alpha then it will need to appeal to a wider base.

You seem to be missing the point of a parts bin car. It is not to "create volume", the cars that create volume are the big sellers, a parts bin car are an "oops, we probably won't fully utilize this factory with the updated sales forecast, let's add something else to the line to fill the gap". Filling a gap and filling volume are two totally different things. Why do you think Chevy doesn't invest much advertising into the Camaro? Remember the Chevy SS? It's only existence owed to filling a gap at a factory. The car was never advertised, and most people still haven't heard of it.

A Camaro or ANY sport car will never be a volume seller for GM. EVER. Even Porsche is producing SUV's now. We all have to face the facts that it's not just Camaro that has a problem here, the whole pony car segment has been in steady decline for some time. Also, cars in general (as opposed to SUVs) have been in major decline. Ford gave up making cars, remember?

Who in their right mind would EVER think of a Camaro, or a Mustang for that matter as a volume seller? Especially going forward.

But that aside, Ford will take a loss on the Mustang, because it is a halo car, and if they can sell volume (which they used to back in the day), they can make money off of the halo car as well. But it will be as an SUV if they want volume.

Chevy, for right now, probably doesn't have much plans for the Camaro. YET. But, they have to decide whether it will continue to be a parts bin car, and help fill capacity at a Cadillac factory (or other), or if they want to make it have a bigger role now that the Corvette went mid-engine. My guess, it will be the former if anything. The pony car segment is not growing, and not too much money will be spent on development here. If there is a gap to fill, Camaro will probably fill it.

But, even if the Camaro survives, and goes to the VSS-R platform, how do we know it will be as performance optimized as the Alpha is? It may not be as good as the Alpha for Camaro because it will have to flex to more vehicles than before.

Not only that, what if Cadillac doesn't survive? Or, what if Cadillac does like Ford and gets rid of all cars, and only sells SUV's.

There is so much in the air right now, that to talk about trunk openings or visibility is missing the elephant in the room. If you can't see the elephant, can you at least smell the poo?

Once all this work on EV's come to fruition, only then can resources be put elsewhere for GM. By then, hopefully, Cadillac will have found it's place, and the Camaro could fill a gap. Then, the VSS-R could turn out to be better for Camaro than Alpha, and THEN they could make the windows and trunk openings bigger.

But that's a LOT of if's...

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

You seem to be missing the point of a parts bin car. It is not to "create volume", the cars that create volume are the big sellers, a parts bin car are an "oops, we probably won't fully utilize this factory with the updated sales forecast, let's add something else to the line to fill the gap". Filling a gap and filling volume are two totally different things. Why do you think Chevy doesn't invest much advertising into the Camaro? Remember the Chevy SS? It's only existence owed to filling a gap at a factory. The car was never advertised, and most people still haven't heard of it.

A Camaro or ANY sport car will never be a volume seller for GM. EVER. Even Porsche is producing SUV's now. We all have to face the facts that it's not just Camaro that has a problem here, the whole pony car segment has been in steady decline for some time. Also, cars in general (as opposed to SUVs) have been in major decline. Ford gave up making cars, remember?

Who in their right mind would EVER think of a Camaro, or a Mustang for that matter as a volume seller? Especially going forward.

But that aside, Ford will take a loss on the Mustang, because it is a halo car, and if they can sell volume (which they used to back in the day), they can make money off of the halo car as well. But it will be as an SUV if they want volume.

Chevy, for right now, probably doesn't have much plans for the Camaro. YET. But, they have to decide whether it will continue to be a parts bin car, and help fill capacity at a Cadillac factory (or other), or if they want to make it have a bigger role now that the Corvette went mid-engine. My guess, it will be the former if anything. The pony car segment is not growing, and not too much money will be spent on development here. If there is a gap to fill, Camaro will probably fill it.

But, even if the Camaro survives, and goes to the VSS-R platform, how do we know it will be as performance optimized as the Alpha is? It may not be as good as the Alpha for Camaro because it will have to flex to more vehicles than before.

Not only that, what if Cadillac doesn't survive? Or, what if Cadillac does like Ford and gets rid of all cars, and only sells SUV's.

There is so much in the air right now, that to talk about trunk openings or visibility is missing the elephant in the room. If you can't see the elephant, can you at least smell the poo?

Once all this work on EV's come to fruition, only then can resources be put elsewhere for GM. By then, hopefully, Cadillac will have found it's place, and the Camaro could fill a gap. Then, the VSS-R could turn out to be better for Camaro than Alpha, and THEN they could make the windows and trunk openings bigger.

But that's a LOT of if's...

You misunderstood what I meant by volume. I didn't mean volume as in a huge seller like and SUV/CUV I meant that it was to be the volume car in the factory. Or basically Camaro was there to keep the lights on and factory moving at full capacity. Like you said since its a parts bin car its meant to take up production capacity. The Camaro being a chevy was to fill up the volume at the factory and keep it running.

That is why I said if camaro was going to stay on alpha it needs to appeal to a broader audience than just the enthusiast. We have seen how that plays out.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by shaffe

You misunderstood what I meant by volume. I didn't mean volume as in a huge seller like and SUV/CUV I meant that it was to be the volume car in the factory. Or basically Camaro was there to keep the lights on and factory moving at full capacity. Like you said since its a parts bin car its meant to take up production capacity. The Camaro being a chevy was to fill up the volume at the factory and keep it running.

That is why I said if camaro was going to stay on alpha it needs to appeal to a broader audience than just the enthusiast. We have seen how that plays out.

Sorry to disagree again, I hate to be argumentative. But, Camaro is already staying on Alpha longer than originally planned. If what you are saying is true, Camaro would be gone already. And as long as it's on Alpha, it will be made at Lansing Grand River (LGR), next to some Cadillacs. They only way this version of the Camaro goes away is if Cadillac sales plummet so far they decide to get rid of LGR. Even with the best design in the universe, Camaro couldn't keep LGR open all by itself.

The Gen6 Alpha based Camaro has it's fate tied to the Cadillacs that are produced at the same plant. Period. Where Cadillac goes (for now) Camaro goes.

In the future, IF Camaro goes to say, the VSS-R, this will change. Camaro could be tied to some other vehicles based off of that same VSS-R, but for now, the lights are still on at LGR, so Camaro is still a go.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001

Sorry to disagree again, I hate to be argumentative. But, Camaro is already staying on Alpha longer than originally planned. If what you are saying is true, Camaro would be gone already. And as long as it's on Alpha, it will be made at Lansing Grand River (LGR), next to some Cadillacs. They only way this version of the Camaro goes away is if Cadillac sales plummet so far they decide to get rid of LGR. Even with the best design in the universe, Camaro couldn't keep LGR open all by itself.

The Gen6 Alpha based Camaro has it's fate tied to the Cadillacs that are produced at the same plant. Period. Where Cadillac goes (for now) Camaro goes.

In the future, IF Camaro goes to say, the VSS-R, this will change. Camaro could be tied to some other vehicles based off of that same VSS-R, but for now, the lights are still on at LGR, so Camaro is still a go.

I actually agree 100% with what you just said here lol so I must have not worded my previous post the way I needed to lol. Well maybe not 100% since I believe its the Cadillacs that have their fate tied to Camaro lol

I guess what I was trying to say is LGR is more dependent on Camaro production than it is on Cadillac production. ATS/CTS numbers were dreadful, and the last few years its been Camaro thats been keeping it going. Even when CTS/ATS were ok Camaro still outdid them combined. ( Are were the ATS/CTS CT4/5 for china made at LGR?)

I was merely suggesting that if Camaro7 goes alphaII they might be better off if it appeals to a wider base, because it will be camaro production that keeps LGR going because the CT4/5 are off to poor starts as well.

The fact that it appears to be on hold is where everything gets murky. Maybe they have something else planned for AlphaII and Camaro is just riding it out until that unknown vehicle is ready