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Old 09-19-2019, 02:40 PM   #3557
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Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
I am going to go ahead and say it, flame suit on and buttoned up. This CPC 5.2 has the potential to be(in my opinion only) the best engine offering in this generation of pony cars.

I thought the same about the Voodoo, and was sadly mistaken, but I feel like I can assume they did this CPC right(not sure why lol).

Anyway, it sure does sound amazing in this video.

Better than a Demon engine? That can use race fuel? That uses the a/c to chill the intake air temps by as much as 45 Degrees? That puts out 840 HP to the GT500's 760? That puts out 770 lbft of torque to Ford's 625? Better than the Demon engine that lifts the front of the (heavy) car off the ground?

Race fuel maps and using the a/c to cool the intake air is pretty awesome stuff, and not offered on any other production car. This is pretty advanced stuff, and it really moves the ball up the field.

Where is the advanced tech in the Ford engine? What's so special about it?

Folks have been driving a pony car around for years that has more power and torque than this new Ford engine that isn't even in the hands of the customers yet. They detuned the Demon engine for the RedEye (that people are driving today), and it STILL makes more power and torque than the Ford engine that hasn't arrived yet.

I will have to give the win to the Demon engine here, and give a big yawn to the Ford engine.
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Old 09-19-2019, 03:05 PM   #3558
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
Better than a Demon engine? That can use race fuel? That uses the a/c to chill the intake air temps by as much as 45 Degrees? That puts out 840 HP to the GT500's 760? That puts out 770 lbft of torque to Ford's 625? Better than the Demon engine that lifts the front of the (heavy) car off the ground?

Race fuel maps and using the a/c to cool the intake air is pretty awesome stuff, and not offered on any other production car. This is pretty advanced stuff, and it really moves the ball up the field.

Where is the advanced tech in the Ford engine? What's so special about it?

Folks have been driving a pony car around for years that has more power and torque than this new Ford engine that isn't even in the hands of the customers yet. They detuned the Demon engine for the RedEye (that people are driving today), and it STILL makes more power and torque than the Ford engine that hasn't arrived yet.

I will have to give the win to the Demon engine here, and give a big yawn to the Ford engine.
HAHAHAHA.....you make a very good argument!! The Demon engine really is full of awesome, and no engine in the segment comes close to power output and potential, and everything you said is true and extremely impressive. The 500's CPC has the potential to rise to the top of my own personal list if, and only if, it has a very high redline like the Voodoo.

As I have aged my taste has just changed. If I had the money I would want both high revving and torque monster engines. Maybe when I can afford a Trackhawk and a Coupe I can check both boxes, but I am not there yet. Dream combo would be an alpha chassis with a higher revving engine, the sort of engine I think we all know is coming for the C8. That is just my personal taste these days if I have to choose one.
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Old 09-19-2019, 04:13 PM   #3559
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I just priced a base GT500 with my options, with no HUD on the gt500 I think.
87K, 87!!!!!! eighty seven thousand dollars!!!
This^^^
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:13 PM   #3560
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Originally Posted by ST1LE View Post
I am going to go ahead and say it, flame suit on and buttoned up. This CPC 5.2 has the potential to be(in my opinion only) the best engine offering in this generation of pony cars.

I thought the same about the Voodoo, and was sadly mistaken, but I feel like I can assume they did this CPC right(not sure why lol).

Anyway, it sure does sound amazing in this video.

In this Generation I'd have to agree with the Demon engine being more notable.
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Originally Posted by bobby35ny View Post
I don't post much in this thread, but I read it every day...LOL
I just don't get the Ford Fan boys, are you guys loaded with cash? LOL
I paid 58k for my 18 HBM A10 pdr, CF hood etc. loaded. BRAND NEW

I just priced a base GT500 with my options, with no HUD on the gt500 I think.
87K, 87!!!!!! eighty seven thousand dollars!!!
For what? 110Hp and lower TQ?
How can you compare the 2 cars at this point???? Sure if the GT500 was 3k MORE than what I paid, I'd say jump on it.

My kid told me last night hey dad the M5 comp edition is faster than your car, LOL
Told him it better be!!! Son, We both could have ZL1's for ONE M5!!
I could send my kid to college on the price difference on these 2 cars.

I digress.... 87k plus markup, GTFO
It isn't even the price that surprises me. What surprises me is the fact that these guys are soo drunk on loyalty that even when Ford prices the only competitor to the $64K ZL1 soo far out of reach that none of them can even afford it and they will defend the price. First off, if I was not buying the car I wouldn't even care about it. Second, if GM priced the Camaro or Corvette that far out of my reach and tried to compare it to a car that is $10K - $30K cheaper then I would have jumped ship long time ago. It makes no sense. Even the GT350R is $5K more expensive putting the non-R at ZL1 prices and the R more expensive than the ZLE. Ford basically sold out. They have no intentions of pricing these cars according to what their fans can afford. These cars are priced at the point where outside enthusiasts like Porsche and BMW owners are the only ones who will buy it. GM on the other hand priced the C8 under $60K so that average guys who want to upgrade from the 6th Gen SS can do so. Matter of fact even the C8 is cheaper than the GT350 non-R. So to me these guys shouldn't even be defending Ford or the GT500. Ford and Dodge both are pushing the prices too high for average people. GM is the only one putting performance at a good price value.
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Old 09-19-2019, 05:47 PM   #3561
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GM is the only one putting performance at a good price value.
And by a HUGE gap too.
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Old 09-19-2019, 08:44 PM   #3562
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Mustang guys want (and need) every advantage they can get. If it were up to them they'd put the CF GT500 up against the ZL1 instead of the ZLE. I mean it's not enough that the GT500 has an extra 110 HP, DCT, and is $10K more than the ZL1. And it's not enough that the ZL1 took on the GT350R (which was the best Mustang at the time) instead of the non-R. And then they completely bypassed testing the ZLE against any Mustang because it would have been a total slaughter. But the GT500 can't go up against the ZLE according to newmoon, lol! Give me a break. They probably won't put it up against the ZLE because they wanna protect their buyer's feelings. They don't want to see their new ultimate Mustang get roasted by a 3 year old Camaro.

I say bring it on anyway they want it. ZL1 against both GT500s for all I care. I don't have much faith that the GT500 is going to work wonders.
Here is what Al had to say about the GT500 almost two years ago.

Bueller ...Bueller ...Bueller

Quote:
Ford just teased the GT500. Where do you see the GT500 vs. ZL1 rivalry going?

I think they’ve got a lot to catch up on. They haven’t had anything for a while. I think our SS 1LE pretty much put the GT350R in second place, all around. Anybody that’s evaluated them head-to-head, it’s a better deal on price and performance. So the ZL1 is our triple-threat car, best of the track, street, and strip. We’ve pushed the limits with the ZL1 1LE, so we’ve got a nice ZL1 package, depending on what your needs are. We’ve put the bar pretty high. We’ve shown in two generations it’s not only about horsepower, it’s “can you get that horsepower to turn?” Is their mission to be street/strip? Is their mission to be a triple threat like we are? We’re ready. We’ve seen them around town in camouflage and so on. Again, I love the fact that we keep swinging at each other because it keeps the segment relevant and it keeps people asking, “What are you doing next?” We’re never going to stop, but we’ve done quite a bit to raise the bar on the ZL1 family.

https://www.hagerty.com/articles-vid...iser-interview
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:12 AM   #3563
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Even if Tadge made it seem lower than it is, 22% is still pretty low




Mark downs only really bad for people that decide to flip after a year or so
Convertible take rate is much lower...17.5%

One requires nothing extra in terms of structure, rigidity, crash testing...the other adds weight and removes cargo space.

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...te-model-year/
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:22 AM   #3564
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Convertible take rate is much lower...17.5%

One requires nothing extra in terms of structure, rigidity, crash testing...the other adds weight and removes cargo space.

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...te-model-year/
As much as I hate to say it manuals are dying. The only advantage they have now over automatics is fun. I see why Ford and GM are cutting them out. Not only do manuals offer less performance but how many people under 35 can even drive one? I would say less than 10%. I know people in their late twenties and early thirties that cant even ride a bicycle much less drive a manual.
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Old 09-20-2019, 08:45 AM   #3565
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Originally Posted by NW-99SS View Post
Convertible take rate is much lower...17.5%

One requires nothing extra in terms of structure, rigidity, crash testing...the other adds weight and removes cargo space.

https://www.corvetteblogger.com/2018...te-model-year/
But one adds $5k to the sticker, much of that profit.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:33 AM   #3566
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As a car guy I can really appreciate what the north american car companies have managed to accomplish in the past 15 years, who would have thought that we would have 3 cars that could eclipse the hero's of the past. On top of that Chevy has a Vette coming out that may be the best ever, we will need to wait to see how that evolves as the car is released upon the market.
I see the comment often made that Ford and Dodge have priced their cars higher than the Camaro, I see no problem with this as Chevy has 2 performance cars one is the Halo Vette with the top trim 153K and the Camaro at half that. Ford is looking at the 500 as their Halo car and for the top trim it is still under GM's, Dodge has done the same thing since the Viper has been discontinued and they have more offerings from bottom to top to their Halo car.
It mostly comes down to personal preference on what one of these cars is the one that does it for you, I would never pay what these top cars demand and it is fun to go back and forth on this topic but truth be told if I was ever going to spend close to 100k on a car it would never be on any of these, I would look for a nice 69 Hurst Olds or a 70 442 W30.
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:35 AM   #3567
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As much as I hate to say it manuals are dying. The only advantage they have now over automatics is fun. I see why Ford and GM are cutting them out. Not only do manuals offer less performance but how many people under 35 can even drive one? I would say less than 10%. I know people in their late twenties and early thirties that cant even ride a bicycle much less drive a manual.
From what I see - the next generation of auto enthusiasts are starting with BRZs, manual Golfs, manual Subarus and Evos…

The younger crowd who drive autos and CVTs are not enthusiasts and can't wait for autonomous travel.

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But one adds $5k to the sticker, much of that profit.
Why can't GM do the same for a manual transmission? I would gladly pay for my preference, it worked for 60+ years to charge people more for slower autos...
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Old 09-20-2019, 09:38 AM   #3568
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In this Generation I'd have to agree with the Demon engine being more notable.

It isn't even the price that surprises me. What surprises me is the fact that these guys are soo drunk on loyalty that even when Ford prices the only competitor to the $64K ZL1 soo far out of reach that none of them can even afford it and they will defend the price. First off, if I was not buying the car I wouldn't even care about it. Second, if GM priced the Camaro or Corvette that far out of my reach and tried to compare it to a car that is $10K - $30K cheaper then I would have jumped ship long time ago. It makes no sense. Even the GT350R is $5K more expensive putting the non-R at ZL1 prices and the R more expensive than the ZLE. Ford basically sold out. They have no intentions of pricing these cars according to what their fans can afford. These cars are priced at the point where outside enthusiasts like Porsche and BMW owners are the only ones who will buy it. GM on the other hand priced the C8 under $60K so that average guys who want to upgrade from the 6th Gen SS can do so. Matter of fact even the C8 is cheaper than the GT350 non-R. So to me these guys shouldn't even be defending Ford or the GT500. Ford and Dodge both are pushing the prices too high for average people. GM is the only one putting performance at a good price value.
Agreed ^ That is where the ford guys argument of camaro is a parts bin car bites them in the ass. Yeah it might be a parts bin car, but sharing the platform with two other vehicles, engines with two other vehicles etc etc is probably the reason why the Camaro is able to have it's affordable price in the top of the line model.
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Lets keep it simple. ..
it has more power...its available power is like a set kof double Ds (no matter where your face is... theyre everywhere) it has the suspension to mame it matter...(
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:07 PM   #3569
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I'll add to that and say, it is not only the tires, but the chassis. A good chassis and suspension geometry does wonders for traction.

When I was younger, it was all about adding stickier tires, stiffer suspension, more HP. It wasn't until much later that I realized it's what you can't see that makes the biggest differences. Chassis design, bushing selections, alignment specs, suspension geometry.
I’ve been preaching this to death ever since I drove an alpha chassis

I rented a cadi cts for a road trip. Shitty tires, shitty motor, worlds worst 8 speed trans. That first high speed turn I took, which was a 270 degree jug handle, I learned an incredible lesson on chassis design.

This was compounded when I rented the camaro 1ss when it first came out. Same shitty tires as my 2011 5.0, infact my stang probably has better tires. And even though the camaro makes boatloads of more torque at the stall rpm, it somehow manages to put the power down better than my mustang. The stang probably makes 1/2 as much torque at 2500rpm, yet with the stang you have to feather the throttle, and the camaro you can just mash the gas pedal without a care in the world.

Simply amazing how much of a difference the chassis makes, i had no idea it was that critical
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Old 09-20-2019, 12:12 PM   #3570
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Originally Posted by whiteboyblues2001 View Post
Better than a Demon engine? That can use race fuel? That uses the a/c to chill the intake air temps by as much as 45 Degrees? That puts out 840 HP to the GT500's 760? That puts out 770 lbft of torque to Ford's 625? Better than the Demon engine that lifts the front of the (heavy) car off the ground?
I see Dodges with the chiller leave thier engine running in the staging lanes even on a sweltering hot day. Does a Chiller really work in keeping the IAT temps low?

Very cool either way, it even sounds cool.
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