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Old 12-02-2016, 02:12 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padre View Post
Mine was $40k-ish in early 2013, got the $7500 and no State, IIRC.

Great deal for you, sucks for the rest of us taxpayers to subsidize it.

Great business to be in, like solar in recent times - get millions/billions of guaranteed loans and subsidies for a product not as cost efficient as petroleum, go bankrupt, walk away rich. Where do I sign up?

Padre
you benefited from the same Federal tax credit...so i guess i'm confused on the outrage that I also, being a State of Colorado resident, get a credit from Colorado, of which you paid zero as a tax payer outside of Colorado.

anyway...seems kinda weird to rail against a tax credit that you took advantage of.

If it makes you feel better, my colleague, who is also a State of Colorado resident, doesn't feel bad that he had to subsidize my State credit.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:24 PM   #86
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Same place corn farmers / ethanol producers sign up for their subsidies on making their corn into ethanol. Something tax payers have been paying for for the past 30 years to the tune of way more (definitely) billions than solar / electric has been given the past decade they've been available to purchase.

Or you could get into the oil business which gets around 17 billion subsidized per year.

Subsidies are everywhere it's part of the job governments have. It's good to at least see it in an industry that needs it to start so that it can replace what we currently are running out of. Waiting until it's needed is too late.
Oil subsidies help us compete against a cartel. Oil has a demonstrated efficiency.

I'm not opposed to EV subsidies, they encourage innovation. Same with CAFE standards. I'm driving a 455hp V8 that gets 30mpg and will run circles around anything ever produced when similar HP cars got 10mpg (my first hot rod was a '70 Judge).

But wind/solar, even if optimized to hypothetical limits, will never be as efficient as petroleum, nor will they make a significant dent on energy needs. So the subsidies go to an ideological pipe dream. Currently, they have shown little innovation and a lot of bankruptcy. Edit: and a lot of dead endangered birds around wind mill farms.

And I am firmly opposed not only to food-based ethanol subsidies, but also to their use. It does nothing for the climate, causes food prices to rise in the Third World (revolutions have been fought over less), is less efficient, and has led to clear-cutting of rain forests as farmers go where the profit is. Burning food for fuel is about the dumbest idea of this generation.

I am not opposed to non-food ethanol/bio fuels. E.g. cellulosic - Georgia is exploring using Pine trees, which are renewable here, and harvesting Pine is not like clear-cutting rain or old growth forests.

Maybe I could put a nuclear reactor in my SS.

Padre
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Last edited by Padre; 12-02-2016 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:28 PM   #87
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Nuclear powered Camaro. I like it.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:33 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by DenverTaco07 View Post
you benefited from the same Federal tax credit...so i guess i'm confused on the outrage that I also, being a State of Colorado resident, get a credit from Colorado, of which you paid zero as a tax payer outside of Colorado.

anyway...seems kinda weird to rail against a tax credit that you took advantage of.

If it makes you feel better, my colleague, who is also a State of Colorado resident, doesn't feel bad that he had to subsidize my State credit.
I'm not opposed to individuals using the system to their advantage. My point was to compare apples to apples. Total cost to own an EV vs. an ICE car. If you get $10k in subsidies, compare it to an ICE car with $10k incentives (like I got with GM's 20% off).

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Old 12-02-2016, 02:39 PM   #89
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With Trump coming to office, and the gaining power of american drilling. These OPEC deals mean less and less.

although prices will jump for now.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:41 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Padre View Post
Oil subsidies help us compete against a cartel. Oil has a demonstrated efficiency.

I'm not opposed to EV subsidies, they encourage innovation. Same with CAFE standards. I'm driving a 455hp V8 that gets 30mpg and will run circles around anything ever produced when similar HP cars got 10mpg (my first hot rod was a '70 Judge).

But wind/solar, even if optimized to hypothetical limits, will never be as efficient as petroleum, nor will they make a significant dent on energy needs. So the subsidies go to an ideological pipe dream. Currently, they have shown little innovation and a lot of bankruptcy.

And I am firmly opposed not only to food-based ethanol subsidies, but also to their use. It does nothing for the climate, causes food prices to rise in the Third World (revolutions have been fought over less), is less efficient, and has led to clear-cutting of rain forests as farmers go where the profit is. Burning food for fuel is about the dumbest idea of this generation.

I am not opposed to non-food ethanol/bio fuels. E.g. cellulosic - Georgia is exploring using Pine trees, which are renewable here, and harvesting Pine is not like clear-cutting rain or old growth forests.

Maybe I could put a nuclear reactor in my SS.

Padre

Would still need the subsidies to fund the manufacturing and development of electric motors and the nuclear shielding needed to get into the market - at least at first

You joke but there are lots of new mini-reactor designs that are theoretically melt-down proof because they can't get hot enough to melt. Would be pretty sweet to never have to refuel. And when you're not driving, you can power your home (partially).


BTW. Cut down and burn all the pine trees you want. Sap dropping cancer they are.
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Old 12-02-2016, 02:42 PM   #91
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Yesterday i fueled for exactly $6.01 per gallon (in germany for 94 octane premium) so PLEASE stop moaning!
If you can't afford it, get another ride.
Europe is more setup for people to use cars less though. I use to be shocked about european prices, until i got older and understood it more. I was also in europe this past summer. Everyone drives smaller cars, and people use public transport MUCH more.

our economy is partly driven by people getting out (in cars) and spending money.
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Old 12-03-2016, 04:50 PM   #92
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On the flipside, most Europeans don't understand why Americans drive as much as we do until they come over and see our lack of a public transportation system.
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Old 12-04-2016, 08:48 AM   #93
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Interesting discussion, I think the US will be the country that will control oil prices in 2017, shale production costs decreased dramatically since 2014. Apparently the current production cost is between $30 (Bakken, North Dakota) & $40 (Permian Midland, Texas) per barrel.

This low fuel prices actually hurts my country badly but there have been some reforms so it's a good shake-up for the future.
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Old 12-04-2016, 10:10 AM   #94
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When I went to Europe (Germany) for work, it was apparent that the need for small cars was not just economical ($6 per gallon tax) but simply on space. Most European cities are cramped and the roads are narrow and parking an absolute joke. I remember seeing a Dodge Ram pickup parked on the street. It took up the parking spot on the street and was halfway up the side walk. Yes there are open areas all over, but most of the small towns and cities are hundreds of years old with narrow streets. I wouldn't want to drive a full size car there.

This is also why in Europe you see high dollar, high performance cars. Go look at the cool small stuff you can get there. Even for GM the Global Gamma architecture (Sonic here) had to be torn up to achieve the handling required by Opel customers compared to the rest of the world. Mrs. Number 3 worked on that for a bit. One region was like, "air bags??? We don't need no stinking air bags" and the other was like "can the car park itself?"
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:08 PM   #95
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You guys don't know how lucky you are ! Here in the UK were paying about 7 dollars a gallon and have been for years, Its mostly tax i guess and yes we have a country run by idiots too !
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:42 PM   #96
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Won't change anything for me.
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Old 12-04-2016, 02:43 PM   #97
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You guys don't know how lucky you are ! Here in the UK were paying about 7 dollars a gallon and have been for years, Its mostly tax i guess and yes we have a country run by idiots too !
We are getting rid of our moron
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Old 12-05-2016, 11:18 AM   #98
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We are getting rid of our moron
Ha Ha !

Interesting times ahead !
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