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Old 08-07-2021, 05:58 PM   #29
427
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 59
I ordered the intercooler and inlet tube from Mishimoto and the tube showed up in one day! I installed the tube and noticed I had a little oil in the factory air tube so I’m adding a catch can and increasing the vent line size so I don’t get oil in the new intercooler when it gets here. I noticed a little more air noise with the new tube, but nothing bad.

Kurt
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Old 08-13-2021, 11:59 AM   #30
smithb
 
Drives: 2016 LT
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I know what you are saying 427, with more air, the ECU will add more fuel and thus more power.

Where you are wrong is the ECU controls the boost, so if you make air denser, then the computer will cut boost so the MAF will see the same volume of O2. You can't control air at the MAF by changing plumbing.

Since decreasing air temps only increases max hp at WOT (below that the throttle body is the biggest restriction), the turbo will always be spooling and its output will be limited by the ECU.

The denser you make the air, the less boost you will get, and you can't make 14.7 psi air cold enough to make up for 20 lbs of boost. It certainly won't happen at 150 mph. If you can though, you will be a billionaire.

GM had previously planned to release a cold air intake for the 2.0, but even that was accompanied by a tune. They never released it, but maybe if you google you can see old articles on it archived somewhere. The original info on it had hp/torque increases listed but it had a note that said dealer installation with tune was required.

If GM can't figure out how to get their own engine/parts to improve performance without a tune, I'm sure they (and a thousand other companies) would hire you in a second.

When you install higher flow components, you will get a temporary hp/throttle response increase, but it will fade quickly as the ECU adapts.
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Old 08-14-2021, 02:42 PM   #31
RedonBlackRS
 
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https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...del-1level-up/

Here it is!

From Chevrolet's media site:
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che...031-autox.html

I'm still salty about that accessory and tune never becoming available. Plus, those wheels are beautiful!
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Old 08-14-2021, 06:29 PM   #32
427
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Texas
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GM can make the car run pretty good with the calibration they put in from the factory, I'll be using that calibration also


Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by smithb View Post
I know what you are saying 427, with more air, the ECU will add more fuel and thus more power.

Where you are wrong is the ECU controls the boost, so if you make air denser, then the computer will cut boost so the MAF will see the same volume of O2. You can't control air at the MAF by changing plumbing.

Since decreasing air temps only increases max hp at WOT (below that the throttle body is the biggest restriction), the turbo will always be spooling and its output will be limited by the ECU.

The denser you make the air, the less boost you will get, and you can't make 14.7 psi air cold enough to make up for 20 lbs of boost. It certainly won't happen at 150 mph. If you can though, you will be a billionaire.

GM had previously planned to release a cold air intake for the 2.0, but even that was accompanied by a tune. They never released it, but maybe if you google you can see old articles on it archived somewhere. The original info on it had hp/torque increases listed but it had a note that said dealer installation with tune was required.

If GM can't figure out how to get their own engine/parts to improve performance without a tune, I'm sure they (and a thousand other companies) would hire you in a second.

When you install higher flow components, you will get a temporary hp/throttle response increase, but it will fade quickly as the ECU adapts.
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Old 08-14-2021, 06:36 PM   #33
427
 
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The tune wasn't changed on that car, just added free flowing intake and exhaust. They have some engineers inside the tech center racing a 4 cylinder car with 1LE parts, that's where the spring package in the Chevrolet performance catalog comes from. I have all the suspension parts on mine that they use, but I still don't have as big of wheels as they use yet. Those wheels on that concept would be great on my car!



Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedonBlackRS View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a1...del-1level-up/

Here it is!

From Chevrolet's media site:
https://media.gm.com/media/us/en/che...031-autox.html

I'm still salty about that accessory and tune never becoming available. Plus, those wheels are beautiful!
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Old 08-15-2021, 01:15 PM   #34
95TA - The Beast
 
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427, I do believe you need to read:

"For maximum performance lap after lap, a concept cold-air intake system has been fitted to the 2.0L turbo engine and a calibration upgrade to its controller optimizes performance across the rpm band."


The tune WAS changed for the cold air kit (as evidenced by, "and a calibration upgrade to its controller optimizes performance across the rpm band" as stated in the article).

Again, you want to argue, but there are plenty of us that already know more than you do. And just because we do, you won't accept what is already known.
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Old 08-15-2021, 04:21 PM   #35
smithb
 
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I wasn't even referring to that whole set-up. GM Performance Parts was originally going to offer just the cold air intake by itself, but you had to buy it from the dealer as the tune was required. Ie it wasn't an option to buy it from the catalog and install yourself.

Meh, let him spend hundreds on parts and get the nice initial surge of power. He won't notice it fade as the ECM adjusts.

Reminds me of the last gen 2.0 turbo I had in a Saturn Sky Redline. You could adjust the rod that connected the actuator to the waste gate and get an instant increase in power. Everyone started doing it and raving about it in the forums. Until people started reporting back that the power faded after a hundred or so miles as the computer adjusted and "recalibrated" how it actuated the waste gate and started dumping boost earlier in the rpm band. Same thing happened with all other mods to that motor... initial surge, then fade.

Then GM came out with a new sensor and tune that bumped the 260/260 hp/tq to 290/340, and it was literally just a tune and a higher pressure transducer to read the higher boost levels. No intake or exhaust needed, the engine came from the factory fully capable of putting down those numbers if the ECU let it (and could read the pressures). Just like our Camaro.

https://www.skyroadster.com/threads/...e-facts.28303/

The guys who spent hundreds on bolt-ons finally figured out you couldn't apply 60's muscle car know-how to a modern electronically controlled turbo charged motor.
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Old 08-15-2021, 06:46 PM   #36
Davescamaro
 
Drives: Chevy camaro
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As of now, the calibration only applies to the v8. They did offer a GMPP intake, but now its removed from the catalogue applying to 2019-current ltg models.
Generally adding an air intake and downpipe with a tune, regardless of who you go with, should do just fine and the power number will increase. Basically adjusting the maf sensor and air/fuel b1s1 o2 sensor along with timing adjustments and longer fuel injector pulswidth (measured in milliseconds).
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Old 08-15-2021, 07:47 PM   #37
427
 
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I read the Car and Driver story and did not see that line. I'm not arguing with anyone about what I'll do with my car, I just asked on here about specific parts that could help add 20hp on a 4 cylinder Camaro as I don't normally work on this engine/car. I couldn't get an answer on what parts might help this type car, so I'm changing the parts I believe I should try first that are commonly helpful. I'll retest my car after the first two changes then make a decision on what parts I will try next. I wish someone had done mods on one of these cars and recorded the power each one had added, that would have made it easier for sure.





Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95TA - The Beast View Post
427, I do believe you need to read:

"For maximum performance lap after lap, a concept cold-air intake system has been fitted to the 2.0L turbo engine and a calibration upgrade to its controller optimizes performance across the rpm band."


The tune WAS changed for the cold air kit (as evidenced by, "and a calibration upgrade to its controller optimizes performance across the rpm band" as stated in the article).

Again, you want to argue, but there are plenty of us that already know more than you do. And just because we do, you won't accept what is already known.
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Old 08-15-2021, 08:30 PM   #38
95TA - The Beast
 
Drives: 2014 Cadillac CTS4 2.0T Performance
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427, that is the point you just don't get...

People have added parts, and NONE of them resulted in extra power without a tune!

I know you just won't believe that GM hamstrung this setup like they did, but that is EXACTLY what they did to ANY of the newer forced induction cars they produce.

You literally CANNOT get ANY extra power out of them without a tune. Sad, but true.

Honestly, no-one is trying to lie to you. No one is saying that 'common sense' would dictate that extra air = extra power is somehow false or untrue. It is the fact that the entire setup is power limited by the computer.

As mentioned, you can get an EASY 25+hp by just installing a tune from a place like Trifecta. Go with their cheapest tune and you get a nice boost in power with no additional parts. Their tune is also very well tested over the long haul. That is why I myself have gone with it, since it is the most complete all-around tune that changes every part of the tune that needs it, not just WOT.

Again, no one is trying to steer you wrong. We are all just stating the same thing, that the computer controls how much power is produced at all times. You have to start there to get any more out of the engine. That is all.
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Old 08-16-2021, 02:05 PM   #39
427
 
Drives: Camaro
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Texas
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As sure as you are of what you’ve been told, I’m that sure of what I have experienced with GM controllers, albeit mostly on V8 engines. My engine is not producing the 275hp it can produce at my race because I’m running in air that is below the quality of the SAE standard it’s rated at. I’m not trying for an increase over the limits of the engine, I’m looking for 20 more HP than I currently make in bad air. I will continue on my way with my best guesses and no matter the results I’ll let you know what happened. My race isn’t until October, but I might do a little testing with the air tube since I already have it. I don’t think anyone is telling me lies, I’m certain they believe what they say.

Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by 95TA - The Beast View Post
427, that is the point you just don't get...

People have added parts, and NONE of them resulted in extra power without a tune!

I know you just won't believe that GM hamstrung this setup like they did, but that is EXACTLY what they did to ANY of the newer forced induction cars they produce.

You literally CANNOT get ANY extra power out of them without a tune. Sad, but true.

Honestly, no-one is trying to lie to you. No one is saying that 'common sense' would dictate that extra air = extra power is somehow false or untrue. It is the fact that the entire setup is power limited by the computer.

As mentioned, you can get an EASY 25+hp by just installing a tune from a place like Trifecta. Go with their cheapest tune and you get a nice boost in power with no additional parts. Their tune is also very well tested over the long haul. That is why I myself have gone with it, since it is the most complete all-around tune that changes every part of the tune that needs it, not just WOT.

Again, no one is trying to steer you wrong. We are all just stating the same thing, that the computer controls how much power is produced at all times. You have to start there to get any more out of the engine. That is all.
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Old 08-16-2021, 06:08 PM   #40
Idaho2018GTPremium

 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 427 View Post
I raced my car stock in the Big Bend open road race in the 140mph average class and did well with the stock engine averaging 143.9 all out on the 59 mile run down in the morning. On the morning run it hit 154mph top, but mostly would run 148-150 on most of the straights. I'm running the 150mph average class in October, so I need 160mph top speed ability. I think 15hp would likely get me 160, but 20hp would be better! I've looked at the Mishimoto intercooler and induction tube between the air box and turbo. Also thought about deleting the cat for the run. Currently the engine is stock (2020 6 speed stick) with only a thermostat change. I will be adding a trans cooler as it ran over 270F on both runs in April. Would the intercooler and intake tube be worth 20hp?


Kurt
Increasing top speed is based on physics, not guessing. Power requirements increase by the cube of the speed difference. Theoretically, you need 21.4% more hp to increase your top speed from 150 mph to 160 mph (160/150 cubed). So, if your engine is producing 255 hp at altitude and you have a top speed of 150 mph, you need 55 more hp to get to 160 mph given all else equal (drag, wind, rolling resistance, slope, etc.). 20 hp will only gain you about 4 mph on your top speed (~150 to ~154 mph).
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Old 08-16-2021, 07:37 PM   #41
427
 
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Join Date: Jan 2013
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I have a pretty good handle on power required for speed, and I believe I'm around 230hp at the flywheel right now in stock form. My estimation is 20 HP would be over enough for doing the job. If I can get by this license run I have a much worse aerodynamic car that has 3-4 times more available power depending on what engine I run for the next runs. I bought the Camaro because my other car is taking me longer than anticipated and it was priced right.



Kurt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium View Post
Increasing top speed is based on physics, not guessing. Power requirements increase by the cube of the speed difference. Theoretically, you need 21.4% more hp to increase your top speed from 150 mph to 160 mph (160/150 cubed). So, if your engine is producing 255 hp at altitude and you have a top speed of 150 mph, you need 55 more hp to get to 160 mph given all else equal (drag, wind, rolling resistance, slope, etc.). 20 hp will only gain you about 4 mph on your top speed (~150 to ~154 mph).
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Old 08-16-2021, 07:59 PM   #42
95TA - The Beast
 
Drives: 2014 Cadillac CTS4 2.0T Performance
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Wow, ok... So you doubt both engineering, programming and NOW PHYSICS!!!

I guess there is just no educating someone who doesn't even care about facts, science, technology. You know, all those things that are so mysterious and voodoo based that others can't be trusted when talking about it.

Since, you know, the calculations must be liars... LOL!
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