[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by wjones14

Where are they getting the $3665 1LE option price on the 2SS? GearheadSS posted that the price was $7000 regardless of 1SS or 2SS.

"http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=510263"

But Car and Driver is saying this:

"we’d take the V-6 or V-8 coupe and add the 1LE performance package. It costs $5995 on the V-6 (2LT trim required); on the V-8s it runs $6500 with the 1SS trim or $3665 with the 2SS, those prices including the mandatory Magnetic Ride Control adaptive suspension that comes only with the V-8s."

The old (and still current on the build website) "1LE V8 Handling Package" option. It's not the 1LE Track Package, which can be added to the 1SS OR the 2SS now, but the website is not updated for this. I verified with multiple dealers that the 1LE can be added to the 2SS at this time. I think a few have taken delivery in the 1LE forum. Similar issue with Ford and the PP2. I asked them about it and you can order it, but website won't be updated for a while. I ordered the 1LE package with my 2SS, now I wait for a few months.

Sounds like Car and Driver doesn't have the latest and greatest news here, it was announced in April that the 2SS 1LE would be a late 2018 (model year) option, but likely when they actually reviewed the cars, what they said was accurate.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by camaroguy236

I really don’t understand the mustang thing. It seems the consensus outside of this forum is that the mustang is the better looking car. I just don’t see it. The mustang doesn’t stand out to me at all.

I don't see it either, I think Chevy builds a much more aggressive looking car all-around. I do think the current mustang is far far better than previous and probably the first in a long time that actually looks like some kind of sports-car and not a total joke. For too many years, they let the "muscle car" thing drive the helm and they were just not very serious about performance. The C5 chassis was a revolution IMO. It lead to things like the ZL1, Z2/8, etc. It was a massively stiff chassis with independent rear suspension made to take wide tires with excellent weight distribution. It was a little heavier, but it was everything that a Mustang at the time was not. I think the Mustang has finally broken free of that mold. Ford still seems to have an issue pushing the limits as far as Chevrolet does and always seems to be "behind" in offering something at the next performance level, but the gap is much closer than before. The lines of the new Mustang are decent. Should have been this way (lower, longer, flatter) at least a generation ago.

[camaza]

I think the mustang is much more attractive/timeless in person. Doesn't make me a mustang guy but I do. The majority of people I know feel the same, is what it is.

[VAZL1]

Originally Posted by samurai

"not as visually stunning as the Mustang"

Make that two..

[DrkPhx]

Originally Posted by camaza

I think the mustang is much more attractive/timeless in person. Doesn't make me a mustang guy but I do. The majority of people I know feel the same, is what it is.

I agree. My friend has a 15 GT with the rear spoiler delete and it's a good looking car. I also like the interior. I like the refreshed 18 as well with all of the upgrades. It's now more in line with the 6th gen including price. Curious to see how it sells over the next year or so.

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Not true. Those guys lit me up over there about camaro reliability, visibility, etc. Lol

In my opinion, the Mustang does look very nice in person, but more gentlemanly and classy. The Camaro on the other hand has an in your face presence and is more visually striking like a concept car. It also looks more aggressive. When you see a Camaro, especially in 1LE trim, you know it means business. 100 mph standing still.

I think they "lit you up" more because of the fact that you posted how much better your 1LE was (with pictures) in just about every thread you posted in.

Either way I've said it once and I'll say it again, you can't go wrong with any of the cars in this segment right now.

The performance of the Camaro is undeniable. The exterior/interior is subjective. (WTF was Chevy thinking with those humps above the steering wheel!?) If you are a track junkie this is the car for you. The Alpha platform continues to be awesome. Love the PDR option as well.

The 15-17 Mustang again exterior/interior is subjective. IMO I think the interior layout is better, and I like the exterior better. Obviously my opinions aren't facts. The 15-17 makes a far better daily driver, much easier to make power and much larger aftermarket.

The 18 GT should level the playing field, looking for some more hands on. Doubt it will match the 1LE on a road course, but I don't track so I couldn't care less which one handles better on the track. Interior is pretty awesome, especially the new digital dash. I haven't seen one in person so can't comment on looks, still iffy on the new front bumper.

The Challenger is easily the best choice for a DD/Cruiser. Not a track car by any means. It's big, roomy, comfortable and the ZF 8 speed is magnificent, especially combined with the 392. Not a large aftermarket by any means, but enough to satisfy. Definitely fills the retro muscle thing if that's your thing as well.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Whitespeed

Until I read through this C&D review, I had completely forgotten that there's a huge error in their degrees of rear visibility measurement. They've completely left out the view through the 1/4 windows and rear window. I couldn't figure out how they could possibly only get 77deg for the Camaro but 128 for the Challenger and 131 for the Mustang. Then I went and looked at the Mustang and Challenger reviews and those measurements includes the view out the 1/4 window and rear window. I also have to question the Challenger measurement, because the passenger side seat head rest completely obscures the view out the passenger side 1/4 window if the seat is in any kind of normal position.

I also found it interesting to note that the Camaro has slightly better front visibility in terms of degrees of view than the Mustang and is better than the Challenger for view over the hood. It all reaffirms my opinion that the criticism of the view out of the Camaro is very overblown. Yeah, the view over the trunk is pretty limited, but unless there's someone in a Lotus Super 7 tailgating you, you're still going to see that there's a car back there.

Nigel

No it is not. It's the second reason why I don't own one. When it's 3rd car time I will but couldn't daily driver a Gen6. Oh and not getting golf clubs in the trunk without having the seat down was the number one deal breaker for me. Easy to do in a Gen5 and a current Mustang.

You have to consider upward and downward visibility in your assessment. And if you can actually use the 1/4 window as an improvement I'm not sure what you are looking through.

GM was (hopefully this goes away with Ed Welburn's retirement) deeply in love with Big Wheels, Slammed Roofs and High Belt Lines. Looks great on the sketch pad and a Chip Foose TV show. And it does result in a stunning looking car, which the Camaro is. But it degrades "usability" of the car. I remember seeing a BMW 3 Series mocked up with the ATS Green House. Imagine taking a 3 Series and using a roll of black duct tape tape to raise the belt and lower the roof line on all the glass all the way around. It's one of the reasons the ATS doesn't sell.

If 95% of the reviews from major magazines and internet press mention visibility on the Camaro, I don't see how it can be over blown.

If you are buying the Camaro for the wonderful performance car it is, you likely don't care about the visibility and in fact if you are so passionate about your Camaro that you come here to Camaor5/6 to discuss cars and Camaros you might even take offense to it, and many do. However if you are buying an 2.0T Camaro for DD, and you just want something sporty, with a trunk and half decent back seat, the Camaro is just less likely to win that customer, particularly in the age of the SUV/CUV.

I still want to see the breakdown of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder sales, age and sex of buyers. That would prove or disprove my point.

It's a glowing review of the Camaro. Enjoy that it was selected as the best car in great segment judged by performance.

As for the Mustang being visually more stunning? No. As I said, the Camaro clearly is the more "stunning" of the two. However, if your eye likes a more simple "clean" European design (e.g. BMW 4 Series) you would more than likely pick the Mustang as a better looking car.

[Cgocifer]

Originally Posted by Zodiac

I think they "lit you up" more because of the fact that you posted how much better your 1LE was (with pictures) in just about every thread you posted in.

Either way I've said it once and I'll say it again, you can't go wrong with any of the cars in this segment right now.

The performance of the Camaro is undeniable. The exterior/interior is subjective. (WTF was Chevy thinking with those humps above the steering wheel!?) If you are a track junkie this is the car for you. The Alpha platform continues to be awesome. Love the PDR option as well.

The 15-17 Mustang again exterior/interior is subjective. IMO I think the interior layout is better, and I like the exterior better. Obviously my opinions aren't facts. The 15-17 makes a far better daily driver, much easier to make power and much larger aftermarket.

The 18 GT should level the playing field, looking for some more hands on. Doubt it will match the 1LE on a road course, but I don't track so I couldn't care less which one handles better on the track. Interior is pretty awesome, especially the new digital dash. I haven't seen one in person so can't comment on looks, still iffy on the new front bumper.

The Challenger is easily the best choice for a DD/Cruiser. Not a track car by any means. It's big, roomy, comfortable and the ZF 8 speed is magnificent, especially combined with the 392. Not a large aftermarket by any means, but enough to satisfy. Definitely fills the retro muscle thing if that's your thing as well.

Nope, fake news! Never once said how much better my 1 LE was. I gave my opinion on why I ended up going with the 1LE over the stang which included why in MY OPINION the 1LE is a better overall package than the 2PP that I was waiting for. Besides, it doesn't matter, wife is getting a 2018 GT, so will habe both in the stable.

Yeah, I posted a few pics of the Camaro. I deeply apologise for being excited and posting some pics to show what I ended up going with. Bad on me.

So, cool your jets homie ;-)

Opinions are ust like a-holes, everyone has one. As i stated here and over there, i am not a brand loyalist. I like all performance cars. Bottom line is everyone can choose which car they like best fir themselves. All this arguing about which car looks better is a waste of time. Some folks like how the mustang looks, some like the camamro, some like the Challenger. Who cares?

Too much time on forums anyway, better spent driving my better than Mustang 1LE, laters!

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by Cgocifer

Nope, fake news! Never once said how much better my 1 LE was. I gave my opinion on why I ended up going with the 1LE over the stang which included why in MY OPINION the 1LE is a better overall package than the 2PP that I was waiting for. Besides, it doesn't matter, wife is getting a 2018 GT, so will habe both in the stable.

Yeah, I posted a few pics of the Camaro. I deeply apologise for being excited and posting some pics to show what I ended up going with. Bad on me.

So, cool your jets homie ;-)

Opinions are ust like a-holes, everyone has one. As i stated here and over there, i am not a brand loyalist. I like all performance cars. Bottom line is everyone can choose which car they like best fir themselves. All this arguing about which car looks better is a waste of time. Some folks like how the mustang looks, some like the camamro, some like the Challenger. Who cares?

Too much time on forums anyway, better spent driving my better than Mustang 1LE, laters!

Huh? All I said I think that's why they gave you flak. I gave none. Not sure how you think I need my jets cooled (?). Also I'm not your homie, buddy. I'm not brand loyal either, hence my varying cars over the years. I think it's awesome that you will have a 1LE and 18 GT. Can't go wrong with that garage.

[JamesNoBrakes]

Originally Posted by Number 3

No it is not. It's the second reason why I don't own one. When it's 3rd car time I will but couldn't daily driver a Gen6. Oh and not getting golf clubs in the trunk without having the seat down was the number one deal breaker for me. Easy to do in a Gen5 and a current Mustang.

You have to consider upward and downward visibility in your assessment. And if you can actually use the 1/4 window as an improvement I'm not sure what you are looking through.

GM was (hopefully this goes away with Ed Welburn's retirement) deeply in love with Big Wheels, Slammed Roofs and High Belt Lines. Looks great on the sketch pad and a Chip Foose TV show. And it does result in a stunning looking car, which the Camaro is. But it degrades "usability" of the car. I remember seeing a BMW 3 Series mocked up with the ATS Green House. Imagine taking a 3 Series and using a roll of black duct tape tape to raise the belt and lower the roof line on all the glass all the way around. It's one of the reasons the ATS doesn't sell.

If 95% of the reviews from major magazines and internet press mention visibility on the Camaro, I don't see how it can be over blown.

If you are buying the Camaro for the wonderful performance car it is, you likely don't care about the visibility and in fact if you are so passionate about your Camaro that you come here to Camaor5/6 to discuss cars and Camaros you might even take offense to it, and many do. However if you are buying an 2.0T Camaro for DD, and you just want something sporty, with a trunk and half decent back seat, the Camaro is just less likely to win that customer, particularly in the age of the SUV/CUV.

I still want to see the breakdown of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder sales, age and sex of buyers. That would prove or disprove my point.

It's a glowing review of the Camaro. Enjoy that it was selected as the best car in great segment judged by performance.

As for the Mustang being visually more stunning? No. As I said, the Camaro clearly is the more "stunning" of the two. However, if your eye likes a more simple "clean" European design (e.g. BMW 4 Series) you would more than likely pick the Mustang as a better looking car.

Fortunately, I designed the perfect sports-car for people that need an upright driving position and do not want low-roofs, high sills, low-slung bodies that take an extra second to ingress/egress, etc.:

[JamesNoBrakes]

And yes, I agree the visibility is somewhat poor compared to others. Interestingly, the rear window is no smaller than that on my 428i, it has a very aggressively sloping rear and it's the same. Sides on the Camaro are the issue, helped by blind spot detection and not adjusting your side view mirrors to be redundant with your rear view mirror, but undeniably it's an issue. There are lots of great cars out there that have some of these compromises, some exponentially worse in this respect. But yeah, you are not buying the car primarily for it's great visibility.

[Zodiac]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Fortunately, I designed the perfect sports-car for people that need an upright driving position and do not want low-roofs, high sills, low-slung bodies that take an extra second to ingress/egress, etc.:

I'll take one in green. $1,500 is a bit much though.

Love the artwork.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes

Fortunately, I designed the perfect sports-car for people that need an upright driving position and do not want low-roofs, high sills, low-slung bodies that take an extra second to ingress/egress, etc.:

LOL, my SS is the closest I have right now. Looks a little better than your renderings. Massive rear seat and 4 sets of clubs fit in the trunk. Rear spoiler does impact rear visibility, however . But that isn't my comparison for the Camaro.

GM could have made a car with all of the Camaros performance and outstanding looks and addressed visibility, rear seat and trunk. It's simply down to mm's in some cases. GM made choices and those resulted in the greatest Camaro of all time.....by a huge margin IMO. But it is a compromised coupe with a smaller trunk and rear seat than it's two main competitors, and it doesn't address things that are important to me to buy one.

BTW, my concern is not ingress/egress. I think it's actually fine. I have no problems with a low seat, and in a Camaro you can easily adjust the seat more upright if you want. Nothing in the package forces a laid back seating position. Most of the ergonomics are pretty good for the driver IMO.

The point is, I guess, it's different priorities for each of us. If GM had to add 50 pounds to address the trunk and visibility (it may have been more) there are some on here that would have called it a complete and utter failure that the Camaro ended up heavier than a Mustang. And I will wager mass was a huge part of the Camaro development if not the top priority. It wouldn't surprise me if someone made a decision to NOT add 1" of rear overhang to address getting golf clubs in the trunk, (although I believe they thought they were OK simply by using the 1960s canvas Sunday bag they use). And GM actually announced that they didn't care about the rear seat because in Consumer Reports you get a "1 out of 5" for a coupe regardless so if all they were going to get was a 1 they didn't bother.

If we ever saw the mission of the program, I would bet GM succeeded on almost every measure. I'm pretty sure they weren't out to develop the best coupe on the market. If they had I wouldn't be typing this. But they were out to make the best Performance Car they could, the best Camaro ever. They made the best SS, 1LE and ZL1 you could imagine and then some.

The choices become very clear when you compare the Gen6 to a Gen5. In a Gen5 you could actually get adults in the back seat for a short trip, you could get two sets of golf clubs in the trunk and even though the Gen5 was not great for overall visibility, the Gen6 got a bit worse overall, with the improvement being sight line over the front fenders, particularly the right front corner.

I looked forward to buying a Gen6 as much as anyone on this site. It just took one test drive and 15 minutes of trying to get my golf clubs in the trunk in the showroom to realize the car wouldn't wouldn't work for me.

[MotownBoy]

Perfectly said, #3. You just described why this 75 year old delayed gratification teenage hot rodder bought the Camaro.

The 2SS fit my 6'2', 200 lb frame easily, I could see out just fine, and then I hit the ignition & jammed into first gear. SOLD!