[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by MakCamaro

I did the same too. No I don't track my car regularly, but for me the numbers tell the truth and the Nurburgring is the place where a car is put to the test in terms of performance - at least in Europe. Also, I would not spend almost $150,000 (yes this is how deep you have to get into your pockets if you ever wanted to buy a GT500 in Europe) for a car that is slower than the ZL1 from a stop and marginally faster on a roll.

But I still try to find out why Ford didn't record/report official numbers of the GT500 at the Nurburgring.

We all know that not many manufacturers, if any at all, can keep up with GM at the same price point. Much less with only a slight MSRP increase. So it should be no surprise that the GT500 is no ZL1 on the track. Not on technical tracks. I doubt Ford could match the ZL1's time and much less the ZLE's time.

However, the GT500 is still an outstanding car. The problem is that when it gets compared to the ZL1 it doesn't look soo great. But then again, not many cars on the planet look great in comparison to the ZL1 and what it comes with and what it can do on the track. The GT500 has it's place where it shines more than the ZL1.

Value of the car is a personal consideration. I would not have bought the GT500 if I thought it was a waste of money. And it could be that maybe, just maybe, the GT500 was not overpriced...the ZL1 was underpriced. I always say the ZL1 is well worth more than what the MSRP was. But still, what you get from the GT500 and what you pay is not as lopsided as some people think. I enjoy this car. I think it is well worth the price tag. I mean, it competes with the ZL1 AND the Redeye. The RE can cost high $90K MSRP. The GT500 is much less than that at MSRP. And it can battle the RE. It costs slightly more than the ZL1 and although it can't beat the ZL1 around a tight track, it sure can beat a ZL1 in a roll race. So for the price, none of these cars lose in all three categories (roll, handling, quarter mile). And they are all priced similarly.

The Ring is nice to consider for bragging rights. But there is the aftermarket. There are mods. And how many of us are extracting Ring numbers from these cars anyway? For everyday street use all three of these cars are to the extreme when it comes to performance.

[MakCamaro]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Because Ford doesn't post ring times. Didn't with the GT, GT350, 350R, 500, previous GT, previous 500 etc etc

So they are just bragging about how fast their cars are and sell them like peanuts simply by including them in every single movie... Numbers, we need numbers!

[MakCamaro]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

We all know that not many manufacturers, if any at all, can keep up with GM at the same price point. Much less with only a slight MSRP increase. So it should be no surprise that the GT500 is no ZL1 on the track. Not on technical tracks. I doubt Ford could match the ZL1's time and much less the ZLE's time.

However, the GT500 is still an outstanding car. The problem is that when it gets compared to the ZL1 it doesn't look soo great. But then again, not many cars on the planet look great in comparison to the ZL1 and what it comes with and what it can do on the track. The GT500 has it's place where it shines more than the ZL1.

Value of the car is a personal consideration. I would not have bought the GT500 if I thought it was a waste of money. And it could be that maybe, just maybe, the GT500 was not overpriced...the ZL1 was underpriced. I always say the ZL1 is well worth more than what the MSRP was. But still, what you get from the GT500 and what you pay is not as lopsided as some people think. I enjoy this car. I think it is well worth the price tag. I mean, it competes with the ZL1 AND the Redeye. The RE can cost high $90K MSRP. The GT500 is much less than that at MSRP. And it can battle the RE. It costs slightly more than the ZL1 and although it can't beat the ZL1 around a tight track, it sure can beat a ZL1 in a roll race. So for the price, none of these cars lose in all three categories (roll, handling, quarter mile). And they are all priced similarly.

The Ring is nice to consider for bragging rights. But there is the aftermarket. There are mods. And how many of us are extracting Ring numbers from these cars anyway? For everyday street use all three of these cars are to the extreme when it comes to performance.

Great post, as usual. And man, I am jealous of your garage!

[clg82]

A ton of great talking points focused on stock cars....but with an upgraded supercharger on the ZL1 and a tune, you're still substantially less than the cost of the Furd 500, with a worse interior (may be personal preference). Sitting in my neighbors, i feel like i've been downgraded interior wise, sure there is more "open air" type feel compared to the camaro but the dials, junk plastic, etc doesn't feel like i'm in a 6 figure car. Upgrade the ZL1 supercharger with a tune and a ZL1 will hang all day with a GT500 top end and bottom end, at that point your just either a Furd guy or a Chevy guy.....

[MakCamaro]

Amen brother

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by clg82

A ton of great talking points focused on stock cars....but with an upgraded supercharger on the ZL1 and a tune, you're still substantially less than the cost of the Furd 500, with a worse interior (may be personal preference).

Well you don't know any of this for sure. The ZL1 has an old 1.7 liter blower that GM bought for cheap and then did some upgrades to it so it could make the HP they wanted out of it. It was a genius move, I'll give them credit for that. But an upgraded blower could have shot the price up by a good $5K+ easily. Throw in a DCT and you'd be at the GT500's price. Remember, the GT500 has a 2650 on it and a much more expensive DCT as opposed to the A10 the ZL1 has. While I do love and prefer the A10, there is no arguing that the DCT is a better performing and more expensive trans. And there is no arguing that the 2650 is a far superior blower. Some guys are well into the 900s on the stock blower. So again, if GM had put a bigger better blower on that would have substantially increased the price and put it right at GT500's doorstep.

We can keep interior debates as just opinion. No matter what car you discuss, there will be someone somewhere talking about cheap plastics and this and that. The interior, to me, is nice. Is it an AMG or M-Series? No. But nobody who buys these cars really care much about that. We buy these cars because they focus on the performance. If any of them had upgraded interiors then we'd be paying M5 prices for sure...just without having AWD.

Originally Posted by clg82

Sitting in my neighbors, i feel like i've been downgraded interior wise, sure there is more "open air" type feel compared to the camaro but the dials, junk plastic, etc doesn't feel like i'm in a 6 figure car.

Because it is NOT a 6 figure car. It is an $84,000 car. The CF version is like $10K more but you're getting CF wheels and a bunch of other stuff. If someone pays an extra $10K or $20K, then they are not getting $10K or $20K more from the car. So if they all cost $150K due to markups then it is still an $84K car. Ford put X amount of money into it. A markup doesn't add anything.

Originally Posted by clg82

Upgrade the ZL1 supercharger with a tune and a ZL1 will hang all day with a GT500 top end and bottom end, at that point your just either a Furd guy or a Chevy guy.....

And again, it will also hang with the GT500 in price. The question is, will people be willing to pay? Over the last few years here the sentiment was that the ZL1 is not worth MSRP. In fact, while all these guys here were talking down the prices and telling prospective new buyers that they can get one for $5K or $10K below MSRP, I was one of the few telling people that the ZL1 was worth every penny of MSRP. So if these guys here were unwilling to pay an already phenomenal price for such an amazing car, do you really think they would pay extra if the price was higher due to a more expensive blower?

Yes the GT500 is more expensive than the ZL1. However like I said, that cost is chalked up to the DCT and the bigger blower. Instead of going with the DCT, Ford could have developed the A10 and beefed it up and then used it in the GT500 which would have cut back on the price. At that point they would just be the difference of a better blower away from the ZL1 in price. So the price is basically the exact same.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Well you don't know any of this for sure. The ZL1 has an old 1.7 liter blower that GM bought for cheap and then did some upgrades to it so it could make the HP they wanted out of it. It was a genius move, I'll give them credit for that. But an upgraded blower could have shot the price up by a good $5K+ easily. Throw in a DCT and you'd be at the GT500's price. Remember, the GT500 has a 2650 on it and a much more expensive DCT as opposed to the A10 the ZL1 has. While I do love and prefer the A10, there is no arguing that the DCT is a better performing and more expensive trans. And there is no arguing that the 2650 is a far superior blower. Some guys are well into the 900s on the stock blower. So again, if GM had put a bigger better blower on that would have substantially increased the price and put it right at GT500's doorstep.

We can keep interior debates as just opinion. No matter what car you discuss, there will be someone somewhere talking about cheap plastics and this and that. The interior, to me, is nice. Is it an AMG or M-Series? No. But nobody who buys these cars really care much about that. We buy these cars because they focus on the performance. If any of them had upgraded interiors then we'd be paying M5 prices for sure...just without having AWD.



Because it is NOT a 6 figure car. It is an $84,000 car. The CF version is like $10K more but you're getting CF wheels and a bunch of other stuff. If someone pays an extra $10K or $20K, then they are not getting $10K or $20K more from the car. So if they all cost $150K due to markups then it is still an $84K car. Ford put X amount of money into it. A markup doesn't add anything.


And again, it will also hang with the GT500 in price. The question is, will people be willing to pay? Over the last few years here the sentiment was that the ZL1 is not worth MSRP. In fact, while all these guys here were talking down the prices and telling prospective new buyers that they can get one for $5K or $10K below MSRP, I was one of the few telling people that the ZL1 was worth every penny of MSRP. So if these guys here were unwilling to pay an already phenomenal price for such an amazing car, do you really think they would pay extra if the price was higher due to a more expensive blower?

Yes the GT500 is more expensive than the ZL1. However like I said, that cost is chalked up to the DCT and the bigger blower. Instead of going with the DCT, Ford could have developed the A10 and beefed it up and then used it in the GT500 which would have cut back on the price. At that point they would just be the difference of a better blower away from the ZL1 in price. So the price is basically the exact same.

Umm what?!^^ no way can you find a Furd GT500 for under 6 figures....and dopes are willing to pay it.....I thru a magnuson on mine and i'm still UNDER the going price for what the Furd is going for, the 10 speed is perfectly fine...even diehard Furd fans love and appreciate the 10 speed....and don't get me started on how inferior the chassis the Furd has, we get it we get it, you love your Furd.....justify that over priced purchase all you want....this may surprise you but.....you're on a CHEVROLET forum haha....there are builds here currently without an upgraded Magnuson that can hang with your 6 figure GT.....that's just how it is......

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by clg82

Umm what?!^^ no way can you find a Furd GT500 for under 6 figures....and dopes are willing to pay it.....I thru a magnuson on mine and i'm still UNDER the going price for what the Furd is going for, the 10 speed is perfectly fine...even diehard Furd fans love and appreciate the 10 speed....and don't get me started on how inferior the chassis the Furd has, we get it we get it, you love your Furd.....justify that over priced purchase all you want....this may surprise you but.....you're on a CHEVROLET forum haha....there are builds here currently without an upgraded Magnuson that can hang with your 6 figure GT.....that's just how it is......

You're talking to one of the forum's (former) longest running GT500 bashers (sorry Blaq, my man!)...until he decided to buy one. He and I used to debate about the value several years ago when the GT500 was introduced and went through its rounds of magazines tests. I used to say was a good value at msrp for what you get and he thought it was overpriced. After buying the GT500, recently he claimed the ZL1 is the better overall car...but it seems he's coming around on the GT500 and finding it is actually a pretty great performance car and value, though maybe still not a better "value" than the ZL1.

For the money nothing can beat the ZL1 overall for what you get. The ZL1 gives better performance than a base GT500 in every category except acceleration above 60 mph. With the ZL1 you get more torque, better handling, better braking (it may not "feel" better than the GT500, but objectively it is better), better steering, more standard features, heads up display, heated/cooled/electric Recaros as standard, etc. Not to mention it gets slightly better gas mileage and a 3 gal larger fuel tank than the GT500, and it's 250 lbs lighter with a better front/rear weight distribution! I mean, GM nailed it with the ZL1 IMO. GT500 came out 3 years later and only beat it at one metric (acceleration above 60 mph).

That said, there is also nothing that can touch a GT500 above 60 mph for a similar msrp except a Redeye, but even that is slightly slower than a GT500, and likely more expensive. But it doesn't do the other things as well. Also, aside from the ZL1, there is nothing else in that msrp price range that can hang with a GT500 on the other performance aspects that the ZL1 beats it in. The ZL1 has us spoiled with how well-rounded of a performance machine it is.

When I bought my '21 ZL1, a similarly equipped GT500 (with Recaros and the tech. package as the only options) was about $80-81k IIRC ($85k today). My ZL1 msrp'd for $69k, but I got it for less than msrp in Mar '21. So to me it was a no brainer, more so considering the GT500s were all going for over msrp.

Anyway, they are all great, awesome cars. ZL1 is a little behind in power but still leads in everything else. But since it's lighter and better designed (weight distribution), it can get away with a little less power on the street at sane speeds. That's OK.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by clg82

this may surprise you but.....you're on a CHEVROLET forum haha....

Not for nothing, despite all your posturing, I am by far more of a diehard Camaro guy than you will ever be. I've been on this forum since 2012 with my FBO 2010 Camaro 2SS/RS with LS3 (6 sp trans). I've contributed more to this forum than you ever will. So I'm telling you bud, you're barking up the wrong tree with your nonsense. Don't you dare sit here trying to paint me as being misguided. I know for darn sure what forum I'm on. And to add to that, I don't GAF what forum I'm on. If someone wants to know which car is faster or which car is a better deal or any other technical data, then I give it to them straight. I do not care one bit for your (or anyone else's) subjective thoughts. If you think the GT500 is such a horrible car and such a terrible deal then don't buy one. Plain and simple.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by clg82

Umm what?!^^ no way can you find a Furd GT500 for under 6 figures....and dopes are willing to pay it.....

Since you are apparently struggling with this simple concept, I'll dumb it down even more than I already did.

There is a difference between a car being a 6 figure car and a car costing 6 figures to buy. One represents what was put into the car. The other represents the value of the car. If this was a Dora episode then she would be asking if you can guess which is which. Since the episode would run out of time before you figured it out, I'll explain even further.

Manufacturers build cars with a budget in mind. That budget determines how much they can put into the car and then how much they think they can sell it at. So if the car has a MSRP of $50,000...but the dealership sells it for $150,000...it is still a $50,000 car. Do you understand? That is what the car is.

Now if some yahoo buys it for $150,000, then that is what the car costs. These are two very different things.

The GT500 is an $84,000 vehicle. You can pay $184,000 for one. That does not make it a $184,000 car. It is still an $84,000 car. It has a high value, sure. But everything about the car reflects that it was an $84,000 car. And if you compared it to an actual $184,000 car you would see that they are not comparable in features, options, build, quality, etc. Do you understand?

So in your comparisons, regardless of what the dealerships charge, the car still competes with cars in it's MSRP price range. However, if someone pays more, then it comes down to factoring in what they could have gotten for that same money. If someone pays $120K for one, then you could get a M5 for that same price. So you're paying M5 money for an $84,000 car. Get it? If someone is stupid enough to pay more money for less car then that is on them. I personally wouldn't and didn't.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by clg82

there are builds here currently without an upgraded Magnuson that can hang with your 6 figure GT.....that's just how it is......

Yea? And I can slap a supercharger on my base model GT and it will either hang with or smoke you and it will still be about $30,000 cheaper than what you got your car for...or $40,000 cheaper than what you spent on your car and the upgrades. Or better yet, I can factor in MSRP AND what I paid to mod my ZL1 and it will walk yours and I'm willing to bet my overall price is less than yours. Does that make your ZL1 overpriced? Or, my HC with $2500 in mods and pushing 766 RWHP will hang with or smoke your ZL1 and I still paid less overall while making more HP and having a faster car. Does that make your ZL1 overpriced? You're not on my level so I suggest you take a step back.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You're talking to one of the forum's (former) longest running GT500 bashers (sorry Blaq, my man!)...until he decided to buy one. He and I used to debate about the value several years ago when the GT500 was introduced and went through its rounds of magazines tests. I used to say was a good value at msrp for what you get and he thought it was overpriced. After buying the GT500, recently he claimed the ZL1 is the better overall car...but it seems he's coming around on the GT500 and finding it is actually a pretty great performance car and value, though maybe still not a better "value" than the ZL1.

For the money nothing can beat the ZL1 overall for what you get. The ZL1 gives better performance than a base GT500 in every category except acceleration above 60 mph. With the ZL1 you get more torque, better handling, better braking (it may not "feel" better than the GT500, but objectively it is better), better steering, more standard features, heads up display, heated/cooled/electric Recaros as standard, etc. Not to mention it gets slightly better gas mileage and a 3 gal larger fuel tank than the GT500, and it's 250 lbs lighter with a better front/rear weight distribution! I mean, GM nailed it with the ZL1 IMO. GT500 came out 3 years later and only beat it at one metric (acceleration above 60 mph).

That said, there is also nothing that can touch a GT500 above 60 mph for a similar msrp except a Redeye, but even that is slightly slower than a GT500, and likely more expensive. But it doesn't do the other things as well. Also, aside from the ZL1, there is nothing else in that msrp price range that can hang with a GT500 on the other performance aspects that the ZL1 beats it in. The ZL1 has us spoiled with how well-rounded of a performance machine it is.

When I bought my '21 ZL1, a similarly equipped GT500 (with Recaros and the tech. package as the only options) was about $80-81k IIRC ($85k today). My ZL1 msrp'd for $69k, but I got it for less than msrp in Mar '21. So to me it was a no brainer, more so considering the GT500s were all going for over msrp.

Anyway, they are all great, awesome cars. ZL1 is a little behind in power but still leads in everything else. But since it's lighter and better designed (weight distribution), it can get away with a little less power on the street at sane speeds. That's OK.

You are right, I was a GT500 basher. And I still kinda am. There are some areas that could have been improved. But I do think that Ford simply ran out of time. Another 2 years of development and I think Ford would have nailed it. BTW, I think Ford had less overall time developing the GT500 than GM did with the ZL1. I'm convinced GM had started on the 6th Gen ZL1 way back in 2011. In fact, I say it all the time...back when people were complaining about why the 5th Gen ZL1 didn't get an upgrade, I think it was because GM had been done moved on and was working on the next best thing at that point. I think Ford had planned to battle the ZL1 but were focusing on making the S550 GT500 outperform the 5th Gen ZL1 not knowing that GM was taking things to a whole new level. At that point I think Ford had to go back to the drawing board. Remember, they were originally set to release the GT500 in 2018 and then pushed it back to 2019 and then 2020. I think they had to bring it back in and re-do a lot of stuff. Along with having to answer to the SS and the SLE with the 18 GT upgrade and the PP2.

The GT500 is a great car. Again, can it hang with a ZL1? Yes. Can it beat a Zl1? Well only in one thing. That alone, considering what you'll pay elsewhere for a car that can beat a ZL1 at anything, that says a lot. And the extra price in MSRP is due to having more expensive components. A10 and a cheaper blower and the GT500 would be at the same price point as the ZL1. But that is just speculation. What we do know is that it beats the RE and ZL1 in roll ons (up to 180, lol), beats the RE in handling by far, keeps up with the standard ZL1 in handling (not an easy task), and is priced between the two. Those stats are not bad at all.

[clg82]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

You're talking to one of the forum's (former) longest running GT500 bashers (sorry Blaq, my man!)...until he decided to buy one. He and I used to debate about the value several years ago when the GT500 was introduced and went through its rounds of magazines tests. I used to say was a good value at msrp for what you get and he thought it was overpriced. After buying the GT500, recently he claimed the ZL1 is the better overall car...but it seems he's coming around on the GT500 and finding it is actually a pretty great performance car and value, though maybe still not a better "value" than the ZL1.

For the money nothing can beat the ZL1 overall for what you get. The ZL1 gives better performance than a base GT500 in every category except acceleration above 60 mph. With the ZL1 you get more torque, better handling, better braking (it may not "feel" better than the GT500, but objectively it is better), better steering, more standard features, heads up display, heated/cooled/electric Recaros as standard, etc. Not to mention it gets slightly better gas mileage and a 3 gal larger fuel tank than the GT500, and it's 250 lbs lighter with a better front/rear weight distribution! I mean, GM nailed it with the ZL1 IMO. GT500 came out 3 years later and only beat it at one metric (acceleration above 60 mph).

That said, there is also nothing that can touch a GT500 above 60 mph for a similar msrp except a Redeye, but even that is slightly slower than a GT500, and likely more expensive. But it doesn't do the other things as well. Also, aside from the ZL1, there is nothing else in that msrp price range that can hang with a GT500 on the other performance aspects that the ZL1 beats it in. The ZL1 has us spoiled with how well-rounded of a performance machine it is.

When I bought my '21 ZL1, a similarly equipped GT500 (with Recaros and the tech. package as the only options) was about $80-81k IIRC ($85k today). My ZL1 msrp'd for $69k, but I got it for less than msrp in Mar '21. So to me it was a no brainer, more so considering the GT500s were all going for over msrp.

Anyway, they are all great, awesome cars. ZL1 is a little behind in power but still leads in everything else. But since it's lighter and better designed (weight distribution), it can get away with a little less power on the street at sane speeds. That's OK.

Except a modified ZL1 that still can be bought for UNDER what idiots are paying for the GT500 Furd….

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by L99BEN

As was said already, you're mainly paying more for the larger supercharger, DCT and hand built motor. Worth what I paid to me and would do it again.

I have 2 quotes for a build on my GT500. One puts it around 800 RWHP and the other puts it at closer to 900 RWHP. And a lot of these guys are doing these upgrades on pump gas. And it is far cheaper than it would cost to make the same power in a ZL1. In fact, factoring all three of these cars at MSRP, and then factoring in the cost of upgrading both them all to 800+ RWHP, the ZL1 is by far the most expensive. And factoring in all the costs, you will have paid the same amount of money at the end of the day. So yea, small simple upgrades on a Zl1 can beat a stock GT500 and come in at a lower price. But once you start looking to make big power, the ZL1 ultimately costs more.