[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

EVs will do everything an ICE does except make engine noise and have a manual shift lever and clutch (Toyota has patented an EV device that lets it drive like a manual). In most auto segments, other than what drives this website, seamless shifting and quiet operation are attributes that matter in vehicle development. EVs fix that. Only in our segment, performance cars, does the NVH issue even come into play. Reminded that the big knock on the CTS V and CT4 V Blackwing was engine sound from the V6. Not just that is doesn't have the sound, but the sound it does have isn't good.

That “except” is huge. Go to the one minute mark, in the link below, and sense the visceral component of an otherwise antiquated car.

You are talking to automobile enthusiasts on an enthusiast forum. Again … I’m puzzled why a non car guy entered the discussion.

Except for beef lovers …tofu burgers offer superior nutritional and ecological benefits than beef patties do.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/vj11x7...&html5=1&rel=0

[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by hotlap

That “except” is huge. Go to the one minute mark, in the link below, and sense the visceral component of an otherwise antiquated car.

You are talking to automobile enthusiasts on an enthusiast forum. Again … I’m puzzled why a non car guy entered the discussion.

Except for beef lovers …tofu burgers offer superior nutritional and ecological benefits than beef patties do.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/vj11x7...&html5=1&rel=0

I hope you know Mr "Number 3" was at GM and helped with the 5thGen Camaro's development along with being one the first Camaro CTF drivers, so I would definitely call him a car guy. He is in very good standing with the "FBodFather" himself.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First you are simply restating m6 point on Cadillac V6.



A “fake” manual has zero to do with being an appliance any more than having an automatic in a Camaro makes it an appliance.



And an EV may offer you nothing (doesn’t do much for me yet) but it does do prett6 much everything you claim to want with the exception of NVH and shifting and as most Camaro buyers buy automatics it does everything most Camaro buyers ant with the only exception being NVH.



I’ll say it again, EVs offer everything but GENUINE vroom, vroom sounds and fast charging.



If you really and truly believe GM would replace the Camaro and CT4/5 with cars that aren’t interesting, engaging and enjoyable to drive then you simply letting your anti EV colors cloud your vision.



And if you simply read Taycan or eTron GT reviews with an open mind (hard to do these days) you will not read about boring appliances. They are beautiful, and from every review, awesome performance cars. But they are EVs.



It’s totally ok if you need the NVH of an ICE. Big fan myself. But people have to stop with the BS that simply being an EV precludes it from being an awesome performance car.



Everyone is starting with SUVs right now because that’s where the volume is. And no a Bolt or Bolt EUV are not awesome performance cars. But they are no more appliances than a Trailblazer.



Me? I fully believe GM has a performance coupe on the way. And short of the NVH issues I expect it to drive and handle very well. I expect it to be great to look at and exciting to drive. They won’t do it if they can’t achieve those things. It won’t be a Cruise Origin or even close as some people keep going on about them being appliances.



Saying an EV is an appliance is just a weak put down when all you have to do is look around at the EVs here or coming. It’s just simply not a true statement but an easy slight to make.

The issue here is that people here love their ICE and/or manual trans. Sure, some part of this love is driven by logic, but a lot of it is irrational, and here you are, trying to counter it with logic. It's doomed to fail.

Also, your argument basically relies on NVH being trivial to most people here, but it isn't. In fact, if the LT1 is as smooth as the Lexus V8 that can run on the dyno without making the stacked champagne glasses fall over, it would kill a good part of the experience for me. A lot of people here are probably the same. This is supposed to be a raw pony car, not a luxury appliance I fall asleep in.

https://youtu.be/kWW71S36Qx4

Basically, you can pick every hobby apart if you try. You could go ask why audiophiles obsess themselves with super expensive headphone when the mass consumer stuff does just fine. You could go ask why people like playing golf when the practice can get repetitive. It's not necessarily the objective metrics that decide everything. As long as the experience makes you feel happy, that's the formula that works.

Now if we want to get technical... You are making charging speed improvement sound trivial. It's like the "solid state batteries are just 5 years away!" stuff all over again. Power = Voltage × Current, that's pretty basic stuff. You can only safely crank voltage and current up so much before safety becomes an issue, whether it be electrical shock from the high voltage or heat/fire from high current. We also know that lithium batteries hate being charged or discharged quickly. While this is generally not a huge issue for private use vehicles, taxi use will just chew through batteries like nothing. There are just way too many miracle battery shams out there that, again, I will only believe it when I see it.

I am recently doing some car shopping with a family friend and honestly, I think the idea of PHEV is pretty nice. I think that can stick around for a good while until there is a genuine improvement for battery tech, assuming it can even be done.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by RLHMARINES

I hope you know Mr "Number 3" was at GM and helped with the 5thGen Camaro's development along with being one the first Camaro CTF drivers, so I would definitely call him a car guy. He is in very good standing with the "FBodFather" himself.

I didn’t know that #3 was part of the gen5 Camaro design team or that he was given a CTF car to evaluate. I’d love to hear more about what part of the car he was responsible for and how GM took his harsh feedback before its release to production.

I thought he led the team responsible for the C6 Z06 balsa wood floor and that FBodFather let #3 drive his CTF car at an event.

I do know that #3 has never owned any Camaro, Firebird or Corvette and he has called us “deniers” in the past for liking the Camaro with its compromises. GM designed it, to much so, for us enthusiast. It should have been more like the Chevy SS in its proportions and functionality.

[Camaro fanboy]

How much does it cost to put new batteries in a Tesla?
Back in 2019, Elon Musk said that replacing battery modules only costs between $5,000 and $7,000. Each Tesla model uses between four and five battery modules per vehicle, meaning a complete replacement will set you back between $20,000 and $35,000.26 Jan 2022

[genxer]

Also, 100%-0% battery capacity is at a chosen point in a diminishing voltage discharge curve. A real push for performance would be with lighter packs, drained deeper, at a steep cost to cycle life for cells. Batteries would become a consumable.

At that point electric performance becomes a game for those with very deep pockets.

[Rob3D]

I’ve replaced all my tools with EGO, including a zt lawnmower. I also have a Polaris EV UTV. Our tractor is diesel but no electric trucks or vehicles. (You can’t haul horses and livestock when refueling takes an hour.).

I didn’t go electric for the environment or to save money. I did it because I don’t have to worry about gas, tune ups or all that cord pulling. Convenience was my reason. Plus I cut my noise pollution way, WAY down. When they make a truck that can pull a three horse slant 600 miles, I’ll consider it. But it has to do the job…period.

So is this the evolution of electric vehicles? It certainly feels like it. 10% of vehicles on the road are electric (or whatever). Then 20% then 50%. Where it stops nobody knows.

[Camaro fanboy]

it's all BS this battery car crap. once the batteries are worn out u throw the car away.
with an ice car they can easy go for 50 years and million miles plus

[V8 Firebird]

Originally Posted by Chrome383Z

Cool tech, fast as hell given the weight..

My concern for the car scene in general is that the days of buying a ss and modding it to higher performance is over. That is sad. With EV you pay for what you get.

I don't think so. I can see battery and motor swap there.

[RagingHawk]

I don't understand why there needs to be a transition to full EV. There needs to remain enthusiast vehicles. Many automakers are just retooling existing platforms(less r&d) to extend the life of some of these vehicles. Hybrids are needed as well. Full EV transition is not feasible. It's not gonna be economical at the deadlines currently set out.

Some EVs are getting better, decent range, losing some weight , still somewhat expensive. Although EV is gonna make the automobile a more focused machine with less variety. It's all gonna be daily driver awd vehicles. Hardly any differentiation. I personally like the Polestar 2.

The one thing I despise though, is that these are in no way upgrades to ice vehicles. It's a forced transition to buy these vehicles. The climate change policies being instated around the world are driving up gas prices and governments don't mind this pressure on the consumer to lock us into 84 month loans for EV vehicles that are inferior to ICE counterparts. They want us to drive less, own less cars , and produce less cars. I hate being coerced into owning a electric vehicle. If you're not well off than you don't have a choice. The middle class is gonna hold the burden of this EV transition, forcing us to take on lengthy loans and high payments for new technology to sacrifice for the future. Of course we have to take on that burden. The wealthier people will not , they can own ice vehicles alongside EV ones, and get access to best technology without consquences. These gas prices right now are for this reason. They're gonna get higher. Middle class is gonna get screwed since cost of vehicle ownership will skyrocket. Either get a normal car with gas costing triple your insurance potentially, or get a high payment new tech vehicle with inferior range, handling characteristics and slower refilling times.

If DeSantis runs and pledges to make realistic deadlines and goals, I'll vote for him. This kind of pressure on the consumers should've came around 2030-2035. Not 2022 where govt is immediately trying to force us into buying electric vehicles. When ICE has potential for the best decade ever in terms of value, tech, fuel economy, and other characteristics.

[RagingHawk]

Originally Posted by Rob3D

I’ve replaced all my tools with EGO, including a zt lawnmower. I also have a Polaris EV UTV. Our tractor is diesel but no electric trucks or vehicles. (You can’t haul horses and livestock when refueling takes an hour.).

I didn’t go electric for the environment or to save money. I did it because I don’t have to worry about gas, tune ups or all that cord pulling. Convenience was my reason. Plus I cut my noise pollution way, WAY down. When they make a truck that can pull a three horse slant 600 miles, I’ll consider it. But it has to do the job…period.

So is this the evolution of electric vehiclespes ? It certainly feels like it. 10% of vehicles on the road are electric (or whatever). Then 20% then 50%. Where it stops nobody knows.

It's gonna go that way because automakers are legally prevented from developing ICE vehicles. Electric vehicles will improve, and become really good daily drivers imo. With some sporty Dynamics. Basically every car will become like a 'n-line' or 'amg-line'. Slightly sport injected awd daily drivers and nothing more. Besides electric hypercars that no one can afford nor care for.

[Rob3D]

Originally Posted by RagingHawk

It's gonna go that way because automakers are legally prevented from developing ICE vehicles. Electric vehicles will improve, and become really good daily drivers imo. With some sporty Dynamics. Basically every car will become like a 'n-line' or 'amg-line'. Slightly sport injected awd daily drivers and nothing more. Besides electric hypercars that no one can afford nor care for.

Yup. And take nascar and drag racing as another example. They’ve done to those cars everything that can be done. They’ve even restricted speed on some tracks and I think they’ve reached a performance vehicle technical plateau. I don’t possess the engineering and technical knowledge to write intelligently about much of this…..so Comment on this and how it might affect the world of EV. However, I can say with confidence they are intertwined

[Realist]

The one thing EV’s aren’t doing in my eyes is all around performance with comparable price. They claim it’s going to be cheaper to go EV but what current EV performs in all ways similar to a 6th Gen ZL1 and price. Nothing. They are all $140k cars. Sure they may out accelerated but what about the handling? I think an EV Camaro that looks, handles and accelerates equal to SS 1LE would still be $90k. That’s the big problem I have with them. Gonna be interesting to see what GM quotes to replace a 2023 Silverado EV battery 10years from now. Battery=$9000, service labor to separate body from chassis=$2000, battery recycle=$1700?

[bigd1276]

Long but very interesting.........

https://youtu.be/3ZsXyDkyrCk