[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

What happened to right to repair?

just like todays new ICE cars,you have the right....but what about the knowledge and tools?

[lbls1]

You are right unfortunately. With the advent of EVs, it will (destroy) alter the car culture as we once knew it. No more true muscle cars, or even cars with style and grace. No more acceleration sounds, or room for an (entire family).

However, I do not see myself buying an EV. The EVs are still behind somewhat in terms of convenience and usability. As long as there are Hondas or Toyota or the Big 3 pick-ups available, then that is what's left of my car culture that I will patronize. It isn't that I am against change, but change should be meaningful and offer improvement while maintaining the assets that I find valuable in a product.

EVs (and other alternatives) would have to improve to an extent where I can re-charge or re-fuel anywhere, pick up and go anywhere in the country without worrying where to re-energize, and have room for passengers and luggage. As it stands, it looks like EVs still have a long way to go to develop into livable transportation alternatives. EVs should also be affordable. I don't want to spend a limb for an ev if it doesn't offer a fraction of what a desirable automobile offers.

[Memphis SS]

Originally Posted by Number 3

First, anyone who thinks EVs prohibit them from modifying or recalibrating their cars hasn't built a personal computer.

You will have hardware choices for upgrades and anyone that can recalibrate an ICE will learn to do it for EVs.

How do you guys think Tesla continues to add performance and range? Over the air programming to existing cars. It's just software so you too will have those choices. And just like adding hp in an ICE with a "tune" that trades off durability for HP you will have those choices with an EV.

Hardware? Once the volumes are there, you will be able to upgrade on every level from components to modules.

It will be exactly the same, just the parts you are changing, upgrading are different. But i expect you will be able to have choices to upgrade performance and range.

From a performance car standpoint, it's simply NVH and charging time. Those are the last frontiers and the noise can be faked as it is in many cars today.

I've built hundreds of computers over the years as well as software development and lot depends on if the auto manufactures allow access to key areas for mods. The C8 is a very good example of how GM has locked down the computers. Most have found workarounds by adding additional modules to fool the on board pc to allow for mechanical upgrades such as super chargers and turbos. This task will not be as easy with EV cars.
Only time will tell but, I'm betting it's going to be way more costly to upgrade if aftermarket companies gain access to key adjustments in the OBC.

[mariojas]

The fact that you can tune ECU right now means that there is not a lot of focus on locking up ECUs. That's for the big three, but what new gamers will do, like Tesla and Rivian? Dunno. They might see advantage over locking stuff up. New management in big three might think the same...
Right to repair movement is pro fixability, not modifiability. As long as you can buy a part and replace it, so it works then R2R works fine. But that means that you can replace entire motor assembly, maybe use some tool for 5k to "enable it" in the car, and R2R is still happy.
On the another hand... Look what Rich rebuilds did with Tesla. Threw V8 under the hood, and could still use the rest of the ECUs, so that dash and other electronics still work. So I have a hope that we could still replace motor ECU, like we do it right now with aftermarket stuff, to unleash more power.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by lbls1

You are right unfortunately. With the advent of EVs, it will (destroy) alter the car culture as we once knew it. No more true muscle cars, or even cars with style and grace. No more acceleration sounds, or room for an (entire family).

However, I do not see myself buying an EV. The EVs are still behind somewhat in terms of convenience and usability. As long as there are Hondas or Toyota or the Big 3 pick-ups available, then that is what's left of my car culture that I will patronize. It isn't that I am against change, but change should be meaningful and offer improvement while maintaining the assets that I find valuable in a product.

EVs (and other alternatives) would have to improve to an extent where I can re-charge or re-fuel anywhere, pick up and go anywhere in the country without worrying where to re-energize, and have room for passengers and luggage. As it stands, it looks like EVs still have a long way to go to develop into livable transportation alternatives. EVs should also be affordable. I don't want to spend a limb for an ev if it doesn't offer a fraction of what a desirable automobile offers.

I'm just not sure where this whole EVs can't be elegant, stylish and beautiful. My guess is it's the "anti EV" belief that somehow if it's electric it must be an appliance.

This tells me one that it's just a bias that exists as people don't see how gorgeous the Audi and Porsche EVs are. Simply wonderful, although like all things based on appearance, it's totally subjective. Also, if you understood how much time and effort goes into making an iPhone elegant. Form factor is a huge effort with Apple.

As for not fitting an entire family? Where does that come from? Sure, no EV minivan yet (coming soon I'm sure) but the comming VW ID6 has 6/7 passenger accommodations and the Tesla Model X has 6 seats if I recall correctly.

EVs will do everything an ICE does except make engine noise and have a manual shift lever and clutch (Toyota has patented an EV device that lets it drive like a manual). In most auto segments, other than what drives this website, seamless shifting and quiet operation are attributes that matter in vehicle development. EVs fix that. Only in our segment, performance cars, does the NVH issue even come into play. Reminded that the big knock on the CTS V and CT4 V Blackwing was engine sound from the V6. Not just that is doesn't have the sound, but the sound it does have isn't good.

We have to stop with this mis understanding that an EV is somehow akin to your washer and dryer (even though as I understand it, a former GM Design Staff executive is head of styling at GE or similar, lol). If you think an Audi eTron GT isn't special and is simply a refrigerator looking car, then I have to feel at least a little bad for you. And if that doesn't float your boat, at least check out the Porsche Taycan. You may not like either to your eye, but neither are "appliances". Both of these cars were designed and engineered for people that enjoy driving cars by people that enjoy driving cars that work for companies that make cars for people that enjoy driving cars.

Car culture will not be destroyed by EVs. L4 and L5 autonomous vehicles on the other hand might. When it truly becomes a vehicle/conveyance that you don't own and don't drive we will see the beginning of the end. Not sure when that happens, but the GM Cruise Origin is on it's way.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Number 3

And if that doesn't float your boat, at least check out the Porsche Taycan. You may not like either to your eye, but neither are "appliances". Both of these cars were designed and engineered for people that enjoy driving cars by people that enjoy driving cars that work for companies that make cars for people that enjoy driving cars.

Car culture will not be destroyed by EVs. L4 and L5 autonomous vehicles on the other hand might. When it truly becomes a vehicle/conveyance that you don't own and don't drive we will see the beginning of the end. Not sure when that happens, but the GM Cruise Origin is on it's way.

The Taycan looks pretty good indeed, I actually wouldn't mind driving one if it didn't cost as much as a house. However, 99% of all other EVs on the market, including those being advertised as "coming soon" are either butt ugly, looking like an appliance (Bolt, bZ4X, Model 3 etc.) or outright ridiculous (e.g. the Cybertruck).

Even more salient is your other sidenote about autonomous driving: while a vehicle being an EV isn't a theoretical requirement for that, it is a practical one, because nobody will mess with complex and expensive hardware when they can just do the same in software. Yes, technically it isn't "EV-ness" that is turning vehicles into appliances, but the correlation is way too strong not to acknowledge. I'm sure eventually ICE vehicles would've reached that point, too, but the operative word here is "eventually", and I'm also sure it wouldn't have happened in our lifetimes.

[FarmerFran]

Just saw a Rivian pulling a camper at the grocery store. Did not get a chance to talk the couple.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by redcoats1976

how about the new ford maverick?not sure about all the specs but it might be what you want...

That is a 4 door.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by genxer

I love a new S10. With a maxed up c.i. new 4.3, r.c.s.b., and s.f.a. No Maverick copy. No turbo dohc. No EV. No b.s. trendy styling.

GM blew it when they never offered up a V8 Xtreme. At the time around 2002 they could have at least had a 5.3 with 285hp in the truck. Most were 4 bangers ext cabs.

[fielderLS3]

Originally Posted by Number 3

EVs will do everything an ICE does except make engine noise and have a manual shift lever and clutch (Toyota has patented an EV device that lets it drive like a manual). In most auto segments, other than what drives this website, seamless shifting and quiet operation are attributes that matter in vehicle development. EVs fix that. Only in our segment, performance cars, does the NVH issue even come into play. Reminded that the big knock on the CTS V and CT4 V Blackwing was engine sound from the V6. Not just that is doesn't have the sound, but the sound it does have isn't good.

Again, I want a car that handles well, is engaging to drive, and will age well. EVs offer nothing for me.

The problem with the V6 Caddys isn't that they make sound. Its that they make terrible sounds. The criticism wasn't from people wanting no sound. Quite the opposite. The critcs wanted sound...just a different one.

The Toyota fake manual effort proves the point of EVs appliance nature better than anything I can think of. When I first heard of it, I thought it was a joke. That any serious car company would put actual engineering effort and resources into such a ridiculous "system" suggests that these cars are at a depth of bland, boring, and lifeless beyond anyone's worst fears. It also proves that driver engagement does actually matter. And the very existence of such desperate efforts to make EVs feel like not an EV is in itself an admission that EVs are lacking in desireable characteristics that non EVs have.

Seriously, who is this fake manual system intended to fool? A fake clutch pedal and fake shifter lever, both connected to nothing and doing nothing? How bad must the car be if this is expected to be seen as an improvement? And who will buy it? Last I checked, children don't buy cars, and adults don't play pretend. The people trying to pedal these things have at best no understanding, and at worst utter contempt for their target customers.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by fielderLS3

Again, I want a car that handles well, is engaging to drive, and will age well. EVs offer nothing for me.

The problem with the V6 Caddys isn't that they make sound. Its that they make terrible sounds. The criticism wasn't from people wanting no sound. Quite the opposite. The critcs wanted sound...just a different one.

The Toyota fake manual effort proves the point of EVs appliance nature better than anything I can think of. When I first heard of it, I thought it was a joke. That any serious car company would put actual engineering effort and resources into such a ridiculous "system" suggests that these cars are at a depth of bland, boring, and lifeless beyond anyone's worst fears. It also proves that driver engagement does actually matter. And the very existence of such desperate efforts to make EVs feel like not an EV is in itself an admission that EVs are lacking in desireable characteristics that non EVs have.

Seriously, who is this fake manual system intended to fool? A fake clutch pedal and fake shifter lever, both connected to nothing and doing nothing? How bad must the car be if this is expected to be seen as an improvement? And who will buy it? Last I checked, children don't buy cars, and adults don't play pretend. The people trying to pedal these things have at best no understanding, and at worst utter contempt for their target customers.

First you are simply restating m6 point on Cadillac V6.

A “fake” manual has zero to do with being an appliance any more than having an automatic in a Camaro makes it an appliance.

And an EV may offer you nothing (doesn’t do much for me yet) but it does do prett6 much everything you claim to want with the exception of NVH and shifting and as most Camaro buyers buy automatics it does everything most Camaro buyers ant with the only exception being NVH.

I’ll say it again, EVs offer everything but GENUINE vroom, vroom sounds and fast charging.

If you really and truly believe GM would replace the Camaro and CT4/5 with cars that aren’t interesting, engaging and enjoyable to drive then you simply letting your anti EV colors cloud your vision.

And if you simply read Taycan or eTron GT reviews with an open mind (hard to do these days) you will not read about boring appliances. They are beautiful, and from every review, awesome performance cars. But they are EVs.

It’s totally ok if you need the NVH of an ICE. Big fan myself. But people have to stop with the BS that simply being an EV precludes it from being an awesome performance car.

Everyone is starting with SUVs right now because that’s where the volume is. And no a Bolt or Bolt EUV are not awesome performance cars. But they are no more appliances than a Trailblazer.

Me? I fully believe GM has a performance coupe on the way. And short of the NVH issues I expect it to drive and handle very well. I expect it to be great to look at and exciting to drive. They won’t do it if they can’t achieve those things. It won’t be a Cruise Origin or even close as some people keep going on about them being appliances.

Saying an EV is an appliance is just a weak put down when all you have to do is look around at the EVs here or coming. It’s just simply not a true statement but an easy slight to make.

[fielderLS3]

Didn't read the Caddy V6 comment closely enough, so you have me there.

You still say that EV offers everything, but you don't address handling or longevity. I've never seen anyone anywhere add 1000lbs to the floor of there car to make it handle better. I know everyone says it feels better because it is lower, but weight is weight and there is no getting around that. My idea of a performance car does not include 5000 lbs.

I understand that they are crazy fast off the line and nothing can match their 0 to 60 times, but that statistic is becoming increasingly irrelavent today. Once you are into the 400 to 500 hp club and down to the 4s and below, it is more of a traction issue than anything. I'll take an engaging, well handling 4 second drivers car over a heavy, clumsy, 3 second riders car every time.

As for longevity, I currently own three cars. 7, 12, and 31 years old. They all run great and I could keep them all for years to come. Had they been EVs, 2 would have already been in the scrap yard, and one would be noticeably degrading already. That's a hard sell for me, particularly when the shorter lived car is the more expensive one.

And yes, I do believe GM would replace the Alpha cars with something less interesting...or possibly nothing. At least nothing with the same availability or affordability. GMs history (and Ford and Dodge) is full of replacing greatness with mediocrity...and for many of the same reasons they are facing now.

Bottom line is, 20+ years from now, none of the EVs built today will still be on the road, and no one will miss them, notice, or care. No previous owners will ever say that they regret selling them and wish they had their old car back.

[lbls1]

Originally Posted by Number 3

I'm just not sure where this whole EVs can't be elegant, stylish and beautiful. My guess is it's the "anti EV" belief that somehow if it's electric it must be an appliance.

This tells me one that it's just a bias that exists as people don't see how gorgeous the Audi and Porsche EVs are. Simply wonderful, although like all things based on appearance, it's totally subjective. Also, if you understood how much time and effort goes into making an iPhone elegant. Form factor is a huge effort with Apple.

As for not fitting an entire family? Where does that come from? Sure, no EV minivan yet (coming soon I'm sure) but the comming VW ID6 has 6/7 passenger accommodations and the Tesla Model X has 6 seats if I recall correctly.

EVs will do everything an ICE does except make engine noise and have a manual shift lever and clutch (Toyota has patented an EV device that lets it drive like a manual). In most auto segments, other than what drives this website, seamless shifting and quiet operation are attributes that matter in vehicle development. EVs fix that. Only in our segment, performance cars, does the NVH issue even come into play. Reminded that the big knock on the CTS V and CT4 V Blackwing was engine sound from the V6. Not just that is doesn't have the sound, but the sound it does have isn't good.

We have to stop with this mis understanding that an EV is somehow akin to your washer and dryer (even though as I understand it, a former GM Design Staff executive is head of styling at GE or similar, lol). If you think an Audi eTron GT isn't special and is simply a refrigerator looking car, then I have to feel at least a little bad for you. And if that doesn't float your boat, at least check out the Porsche Taycan. You may not like either to your eye, but neither are "appliances". Both of these cars were designed and engineered for people that enjoy driving cars by people that enjoy driving cars that work for companies that make cars for people that enjoy driving cars.

Car culture will not be destroyed by EVs. L4 and L5 autonomous vehicles on the other hand might. When it truly becomes a vehicle/conveyance that you don't own and don't drive we will see the beginning of the end. Not sure when that happens, but the GM Cruise Origin is on it's way.

Take a good look at the car culture today. Tell me what do you see. Do you see great looking, desirous designs and an abundance of vehicles offered at affordable prices?

What you are seeing today is a pre-amble of what will come when EVs hit the market. You will see more redundancy, very cold, very blank personality, refrigerator and freezer like utility, and absolutely no personality (unless you pop in the exhaust CD). Don't fool yourself..............we are already witnessing the dying of the car culture because manufacturers are less concerned with style and grace and more concerned with making the bottom line. The bottom line is, of course, important; However it has caused most mfrs. to lose their way and their vision on what a good, clean effort in designing a car is about.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

Spot on. EVs tend to feel faster than they really are as a result of how they put down power. You get all of the torque immediately as opposed to dealing with lag from shifting and waiting for rpm to build. EV acceleration feels more like an on/off switch. That said, after the initial hit they tend not to pull as hard, especially as speed increases, with the exception of the Model S Plaid.

My Tesla Model 3 Performance was a little quicker to 60mph than my ZL1 (3.1 vs. 3.6) but only because of the Tesla ability to launch with dual motor AWD. That is the only metric where the Tesla was quicker. The ZL1 does everything else better. Even the 0-60mph runs are more fun in the ZL1 due to the extra drama of some wheel spin and the sounds of supercharger whine, V8 exhaust note and gear shifts. At highway speeds, the ZL1 will pull away with ease.

I stumbled into this realization recently.

I was driving to work in my 1LE. Negative altitude density, because it was cold, so it was making good power.

There is a four lane intersection where I was in the far right looking to get around the slow moving hord.

The light turned green so I moderately, aggressively, left the light not noticing a Tesla Model S was to my left. He heard my car and decided to go for it around 25 mph. I put the hammer down and walked him with ease.