[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I’d like to hear it from him.

He worked for GM long before the Alpha Camaro. Mr. Balsa Wood floor himself drove Fbodfather’s Gen5 CTF test car. IIRC, he wasn’t with GM then.

This always seemed like a bit of a tall tale from him. GM, the calculating machine, with processes and data, saying WTF …let’s just talk to a few guys before spending a billion.

I’d bet the real story goes …the 2006 gen5 show car got lots of love (slammed roof and all) so they turned it into a successful production vehicle from 2010-2015. They figured Mustang and 911 successfully branded a shape/look so they’d do the same by evolving the look of gen5 into gen6…..

https://www.motortrend.com/news/06ca...concept-photos

You are making a good point, and if you looked at my post history, you'd see I tend to disagree with him in several ways. What he is saying isn't implausible, however. I work for a very large company and processes are similar(ly sophisticated and flawed at the same time), my buddies working for the competition report the same going on at their firms. Gm no doubt has a metric crapton of data and intelligence, but as to whether they use it uniformly for all project decisions, that's not a given.

Originally Posted by TXCSSU

Either way, for GM to have created the new Z06's flat plane crank V8, it shows that they aren't as dispassionate about cars as some in here have suggested.

I think this speaks to the leverage and power of persuasion individual teams/divisions within the company have. The Camaro has obviously become the red headed stepchild, and it is also easy to see that there still are many performance enthusiasts and outstanding professionals at gm—it's just that the company as a whole is betting hard on the latest vogue they feel will succeed, as most large corporations do, yet sometimes these enthusiasts can punch through the ceiling, so to speak.

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by Smokin19

Why not talk about why you bought a Camaro and kept it then. If people are unhappy with their Camaro sell it, trade it or move on.

It's because people are pissed that GM has basically abandoned the Camaro yet again. They see the things Dodge and Ford are doing to improve their cars in this class and are wondering why the hell Gm isn’t following suit. I expect quite a few to actually change sides just because they don't like the leadership GM has now. It's an open forum you're going to get all kinds of threads so just like you said if you don't like the material being discussed don't open the thread and move on.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Sorry you’ve missed my years of posts on this.

For the Gen6, GM did NOT clinic the car in a traditional sense.

They went to a group I believe they called The Camaro Faithful and asked them what they wanted. The answer for that small group of people was simply “MORE”. More of what the Gen5 was. And that’s what we got.

If they had asked Mustang customers or other coupe buyers maybe (likely) they would have got a different answer.

The post you are commenting on is simply GM has the data on why this car isn’t selling and it’s likely it’s because it’s more Gen5 but not more great coupe.

Here is my theory of the gen6 product decision.

• It had to share a version of the Aplha platform and production capacity with Cadillac. That increased the manufacturing cost.
  
• They based Camaro on the smaller ATS to reduce cost, weight and protect CTS
  
• Corvette would move further upscale with C8. Camaro's performance would overlap into C7 Corvette but at a lower price.
  
• Camaro would move upmarket to justify its higher manufacturing cost and performance. Don't compete for lower trim Mustang and Challenger. Volume would be lower but it would have the advantage of the shared capacity of CTS and ATS.
  
• The media and customers praised the gen5 Camaro's styling and its slammed roof. It was the segment sales leader ...visibility, bunker be damned. Stick with that formula pointing at Mustang and 911 styling evolution rather than Camaro going clean sheet gen1-gen4.

What happened?

• Camaro SS appeared in 2016 with a base MSRP that was $4,000 higher than 2015 and no low level trims. The 2SS could easily hit $48-50k
  
• No "cash on the hood" to sell cars
  
• Camaro's acceleration and driving dynamics were significantly above its competitors. Germanic.
  
• ATS and CTS didn't sell. I.e. Carry its end of the program
  
• the entire pony car and coupe market began a sharp, steady decline

Appearing to have been caught completely unaware, 2018 “data rich” GM does a hard course change.

• Cadillac CEO Johan de Nysschen Steps Down
• Camaro Chief Engineer, Al Oppenheiser, moved to EV Program
• GM cancels every ICE and coupe program they have and puts all its resources into BEV.
• All Camaro development stopped. Z/28 canceled.
• CT6 canceled.
• Blackwing 4.2L TT V8 canceled (12 million investment for 800 produced)
• Aplha2 stillborn

[pauly1119]

Originally Posted by Puddin

You don't wanna go there. From lousy oily pumps and lifter failures to valve springs letting go on new motors neither side is a model for great craftsmanship or durability.

Spend a little time on the Hellcat forum, it’s full of engine failures. All things mechanical will fail at some point just some sooner then others.

[s346k]

Originally Posted by zxspeedspec

The problem with marketing the Camaro is most car enthusiasts have the driving skill of a wet paper bag, but it takes no skill to just mash the right pedal and hold it to the floor. Dodge's advantage is they get to market to the lowest common denominator and GM built a track car that only a very small group of people have the skill level to appreciate.

this makes 0 sense. the track variants of the 6g camaro have been and still are touted as the EASIEST CAR IN IT'S CLASS to drive on a track. the cars are laden with electronic aids so literally all one has to do is mash the right pedal and steer the car.

it doesn't take any more or less skill to appreciate the alpha chassis in this designation. if one has been around ANY kind of racing for more than 5 years it is wildly evident that the cars work very well, on all tracks, doing everything.

[bobby35ny]

I've said this many many times.
You can't just add stickers to cars and expect them to sell. A 10 hp boost or so each year to each model would have kept the Camaro relevant whether it needed it or not.
We would be at a 500hp SS and a 700hp ZL1 by now. Don't tell me the cost would be too much, GM pisses away more money than our government does.
-Bobby

[Puddin]

Originally Posted by pauly1119

Spend a little time on the Hellcat forum, it’s full of engine failures. All things mechanical will fail at some point just some sooner then others.

That's why I said neither are a good example for durability. Ford is just as bad. I expect there to be many problems with the new Z06 coming with its new flat plane engine.

[95 imp]

Originally Posted by s346k

this makes 0 sense. the track variants of the 6g camaro have been and still are touted as the EASIEST CAR IN IT'S CLASS to drive on a track. the cars are laden with electronic aids so literally all one has to do is mash the right pedal and steer the car.

it doesn't take any more or less skill to appreciate the alpha chassis in this designation. if one has been around ANY kind of racing for more than 5 years it is wildly evident that the cars work very well, on all tracks, doing everything.

Not to mention there is actually quite a bit of skill needed to drag race.

[Dave777]

I’m very surprised the current ZL1 did not get a bump in horsepower after Ford started selling the GT500.

The gasoline powered Camaro is dying slowly with zero interest from GM. Last one off the assembly line will mean absolutely nothing to the executives at GM.

[redcoats1976]

Originally Posted by pauly1119

Spend a little time on the Hellcat forum, it’s full of engine failures. All things mechanical will fail at some point just some sooner then others.

it couldnt be that many of the people that buy the top dog V8s dog the crap out of them until they blow up,right?not just chevy,but ford and dodge and yes even hondas have engines that expire before they should due to heavy right feet.

[zxspeedspec]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

Not to mention there is actually quite a bit of skill needed to drag race.

I guarantee you give me a modern Lambo and an unprepped surface and I'd beat 99% of drag racers who didn't have electronics launching for them.

[sactownbwoy]

Originally Posted by zxspeedspec

I guarantee you give me a modern Lambo and an unprepped surface and I'd beat 99% of drag racers who didn't have electronics launching for them.

That's not really fair because a modern Lambo has all kinds of electronics for launching too. So, you could take pretty much any modern car with decent power and do the same thing against drag racers who didn't have electronics launching for them.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by sactownbwoy

That's not really fair because a modern Lambo has all kinds of electronics for launching too. So, you could take pretty much any modern car with decent power and do the same thing against drag racers who didn't have electronics launching for them.

This is just my tangential 2 cents', but electric AWD cars are pretty much the end of drag racing as weekend fun. The pros will always compete of course in their 6/7/8-second cars, but lining up and running x time with 99.99% predictability by simply mashing the throttle on the last yellow gets boring very quickly, to participants, competitors and spectators alike.

Case in point, last time I went there was a Tesla Model X that ran within 0.1 seconds every single time, like clockwork, until the battery ran low. Driver did absolutely nothing, no prep, no drag tires, not even lowering tire pressures, just lined up and kept the pedal to the floor all the way. No need to actually compete, one can simply compare spec sheets. Yawn.

(Now I will say having an automatic trans like the one in my car takes a big chunk out of the fun already, so it's not like I'd be a hardcore drag racer, this is only a simple observation.)

[sactownbwoy]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

This is just my tangential 2 cents', but electric AWD cars are pretty much the end of drag racing as weekend fun. The pros will always compete of course in their 6/7/8-second cars, but lining up and running x time with 99.99% predictability by simply mashing the throttle on the last yellow gets boring very quickly, to participants, competitors and spectators alike.

Case in point, last time I went there was a Tesla Model X that ran within 0.1 seconds every single time, like clockwork, until the battery ran low. Driver did absolutely nothing, no prep, no drag tires, not even lowering tire pressures, just lined up and kept the pedal to the floor all the way. No need to actually compete, one can simply compare spec sheets. Yawn.

(Now I will say having an automatic trans like the one in my car takes a big chunk out of the fun already, so it's not like I'd be a hardcore drag racer, this is only a simple observation.)

I've seen some of the Teslas running drags and to me it was boring, but I think what he was talking about was modern ICE Lambos with launch control. So, I was saying any modern car with launch control could do the same he was claiming the Lambo could do against unskilled drivers not using launch control.