[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

We'll see which one was lying when they're side by side and the GT500 can't manage better than a low 11 if that. And that is me being kind.

When Ford makes something worth answering to. The GT is a joke and will probably lose around a track to the V6LE. The PP1 is worthless. The PP2 is an overheating pile of junk on race tires. The GT350 is a $60K+ rival to the SLE. The GT350R...for $74K you can buy the most expensive Mustang that happens to also be slower than even the GT and definitely can't match a $64K ZL1. The Base GT500 will be a one-trick pony that won't do a 10.6 unless Evans is driving and every trick is used. The CF GT500 is a $94K joke that Ford needed to build to compete with a $70K ZLE and it will still lose. Nobody here but you and Rocket care about Dodge. So GM doesn't have to respond to Ford because apparently the Mustangs are still struggling against 4 year old cars that cost much much less. GM doesn't even care about Ford at this point. Even a Base $60K C8 is going to beat the GT500 or at least match it. GM is competing with better more worthy rivals since the first year of the S550 saw Mustang GTs struggling against 370Zs and other imports. BTW, that is who you guys needed to answer to. And Camaros don't answer to Ricers or cars that compete with Ricers.

The camaro ss, like the gt350 is capable of competing against the europeans as an overall sports car.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

You can already tell he's shifting away from publisher times to manufactor claimed times since he fears no magazine will publish a sub 11 (I think sub 11 is possible) or 10.7 for the gt500. Let's not forget to claim the c7 z06 as a 10.9 car whenever you Ford fanboys are claiming it never went 11 in testing.

A power bump would be cool but chevy doesn't have to up anything on the camaro, it's still the over all best sports/pony car in the segment. Dodge has the 1320, which is a one trick pony and I doubt ford or Chevy will answer with their own one trick pony car.

The a10 GT simply caught up to the camaro in straight line performance and still gets beat everywhere else (performance wise). The 2019+ gt350 mostly got track tires as an improvement, it's now faster around a track imagine that, still no faster than an m6 ss straightline. Maybe your suggestion of a power bump was appropriate for the gt350.

The m6 GT is way behind and the pp2 is a cool street car but failed hard against the 1le, and the bullit is a joke.

The gt350r is a great car and Chevy doesn't have a true direct competitor to it, priced like a zl1 but under powered. The zl1 and zl1 1le are more or less competitors to the gt500, but the 500 is really a tier above with more power and costs more. I agree that an lt5 zl1 would be good to make and go against the gt500 but I doubt it's happeneing. Chevy needs to up the zl1's power to compete against the gt500 about as much as ford needs to up the gt350r's power to compare better against the zl1.

At the end of the day these cars can all go exist, the gt350/350r's are overpriced for their performance but people will still buy it for the experience/intangibles and the fact that it's Ford's top tier m6 offering. The zl1 will still be attractive to buyers who want a high power/performance car for a great real world price. Not to mention Chevy wasn't afraid to offer a manual version of the zl1/zl1 1le. You're SOL if wanted a high power m6 Ford.

Keep the crying towel handy, your going to need it often. The best time I have ever seen published by any review of the ZL1 after nearly 4 years is 11:30s and that was one single review, everything else was 11:40s and 50s. If you have access to another, posted review show it! The 500 has several verified 10:80s, 10:90s and a 10:60s within days of its intro, many of which were 130+mph.

Please tell me that you are not bragging about the 650hp/650tq manual ZL1 that can't even beat the posted times of the 2013 GT500 because Chevy handicapped it with computer limits on launch. If you want to brag about the ZL1 please brag about the worthy model the A10.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Keep the crying towel handy, your going to need it often. The best time I have ever seen published by any review of the ZL1 after nearly 4 years is 11:30s and that was one single review, everything else was 11:40s and 50s. If you have access to another, posted review show it! The 500 has several verified 10:80s, 10:90s and a 10:60s within days of its intro, many of which were 130+mph.

Please tell me that you are not bragging about the 650hp/650tq manual ZL1 that can't even beat the posted times of the 2013 GT500 because Chevy handicapped it with computer limits on launch. If you want to brag about the ZL1 please brag about the worthy model the A10.

WRONG

It has ZERO passes under 11 seconds by any magazine at an unprepped surface.

No surprise you bring up Evan's hero runs yet only mention ZL1 magazine times.

Carry on fanbois...

[Evansa22]

Haha now are you talking s about manual cars? Because it's more worthy if it's an a10? I think now you're butthurt about no m6 in the gt500. Could have bought either but I prefer manual regardless of if its slower. Ford wouldn't even give you the option because they desperately needed a win with the 500.
Also if you read the fine print on fords 10.7 claim it clearly reads on a prepped track. What's a prepped track worth to most people? 3 tenths? I'm not a drag racer so maybe someone can answer that for me, but not sure what a zl1 runs 1/4 mile on a prepped track, or if chevys claim is on a prepped track.
Also to reiterate real world #'s, similarly optioned cars your talking about a 80k+ gt500 to a 65k zl1 (or possibly less if you get a good deal which isn't too hard). 15k isn't a small chunk of change

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Keep the crying towel handy, your going to need it often. The best time I have ever seen published by any review of the ZL1 after nearly 4 years is 11:30s and that was one single review, everything else was 11:40s and 50s. If you have access to another, posted review show it! The 500 has several verified 10:80s, 10:90s and a 10:60s within days of its intro, many of which were 130+mph.

Please tell me that you are not bragging about the 650hp/650tq manual ZL1 that can't even beat the posted times of the 2013 GT500 because Chevy handicapped it with computer limits on launch. If you want to brag about the ZL1 please brag about the worthy model the A10.

You just love coming over here and trying to get a rise out of people. Just like Slither, you guys throw stones while in glass houses, and by glass house I mean your GT350.

As awesome as it is, your GT350 has the SAME faults you're pointing out in the ZL1. Where is your "crying towel" whatever that means? You can't even line up against an SS, M6 or a10, at a light without the sweat beads pouring off your forehead. Best to look down at your phone and pretend you never saw him.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I said the fact is that there is a version of the ZL1 that is cheaper than any version of the GT500 but will beat them all at something. Top speed is "something" and it is a fact that the ZL1 will have a higher top speed. So it IS a fact as I called it.

Ok you got me there. Point Blaq lol

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok well what do other cars, the GT350 in particular, actually offer? The ZL1 came standard with more options and features for a lower price. And it came with better performance. And the LT4 has proven to be more reliable. So what else is there to consider? I'm not talking about BS like how the car makes someone feel or how there is something special about it that words can't describe or any other statements that could be completely made up. What other tangible or measurable factors are there?

This is all mean to just be friendly banter -

5.2L FPC V-8, over 500 HP NA, Carbon Fiber wheels (R) - still things that no other car offers in that price range.

And we need to go back to when it came out, it had more options, more hp, was faster than the Z/28 in the MT head 2 head. (LL Z/28 put better time) The GT350R undercut the Z/28 price by 12K and even if you loaded it up with options (which you couldn't do with the Z/28) was still around 6K cheaper than the Z/28. (yes short sighted goal) but that is what was out at the time, and at the time there was nothing like the Z/28 or the GT350R. The 350R took the Z/28 formula and did it better, offered the customer the chance to add back in the tech that was deleted if they wanted, performed better. 4 years ago there was nothing like those two cars and it put the world on notice that GM and Ford could build track cars. With the benefit of watching things unfold over the last 4 years yes we can say time has caught up and performance has passed the 350. yes when GM moved to the 6th gen they pushed the needle even farther and farther and bravo to them. They are building some of the best performing cars right now.


Like I said, it seems you only look at the bottom line of performance as the only thing that matters I am surprised you don't have a Tesla Model S lol.

Now I know it doesn't matter to you since bottom line performance is the only factor that is important but

GT350 and R has wins in magazine tests against the Z/28, ZL1, Porsche 718 Cayman, M2, Supra. The R finished second in Best Drivers Car as did the revised regular 350. It lost to the C7 in I think it was a C&D head to head that's pretty damn good company if you ask me.

There is obviously something very appealing about the car - that is where the stuff you say is totally made up comes from. People are still buying it, reviews still love it.

Are there better performing cars for the same or less moneys yes. No denying that, but the GT350 obviously has the it factor

And the point about the C8 losing to a Hyundai in PCOTY was just that, it's not just about all out performance. Same goes with MT best drivers car- it's not always the best performing car that wins- sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Fun to drive factor, how engaging it is etc etc. If it was just all about performance there would be no point in anyhead to head test, just run the tests, look at the stat sheet and that's the winner.

I guess the jist of what I am saying is, if I am buying a performance car and one is a better performer but the other one brings me more joy driving - I am gonna take the one that puts a bigger smile on my face because I am not always going to be in a situation where I need/can use all that performance.

But none of that seems to matter so I don't know why I bothered lol It's all good different strokes for different folks

Originally Posted by bobby35ny

Don't pull a fast one again!!
its a 77k gt500 beating a 58k A10 ZL1 by 4 tenths!
Price PAID Shaffe!!! not a internet number...

LOL you will never change my mind about that when discussing them its MSRP to MSRP - to many variables in price paid to have consistent discussion

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

Keep the crying towel handy, your going to need it often. The best time I have ever seen published by any review of the ZL1 after nearly 4 years is 11:30s and that was one single review, everything else was 11:40s and 50s. If you have access to another, posted review show it! The 500 has several verified 10:80s, 10:90s and a 10:60s within days of its intro, many of which were 130+mph.

Please tell me that you are not bragging about the 650hp/650tq manual ZL1 that can't even beat the posted times of the 2013 GT500 because Chevy handicapped it with computer limits on launch. If you want to brag about the ZL1 please brag about the worthy model the A10.

You must like getting owned.

Show me a production gt500's reviewed and verified 10 second run, I'll wait. The closest is the publishers recorded 11.2 at a drag strip and even that doesn't really count (regardless if it ends up being faster or slower than that, it was a prepped surface vs street for the zl1 tests). The others are just fast list level runs, especially shallow stage preproduction b.s. 10.6, there's zl1's in the 10s too if that's the case. Until it gets ran by a reputable publisher those times are speculation, it will be faster but not 10.6 faster.

According to motor trend the 2013 gt500 is a 11.6 @125 car and car and driver has it at 11.8. 11.7 according to Ford per R&T btw. The zl1 m6 motor trend reviewed ran 11.8 @123 and car and driver ran a zl1 1le m6 at 11.7 @124, motortrend got 11.7 as well for the zle. This is m6 to m6 not mentioning the faster a10 obviously.

That gt500 was solid rear axle and had more power even though it was older, and besides the 1/4 got beat by the zl1 top speed and handling wise. Both cars did have some handicaps, the zl1 with the obvious torque management bog, and to be fair the gt500 with super long gearing and not great tires

Not quite as embarrassing as a 526 horsepower $20k+ gt350 running 12.3-12.5, same as an m6 455 horsepower camaro ss.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Evansa22

Haha now are you talking s about manual cars? Because it's more worthy if it's an a10? I think now you're butthurt about no m6 in the gt500. Could have bought either but I prefer manual regardless of if its slower. Ford wouldn't even give you the option because they desperately needed a win with the 500.
Also if you read the fine print on fords 10.7 claim it clearly reads on a prepped track. What's a prepped track worth to most people? 3 tenths? I'm not a drag racer so maybe someone can answer that for me, but not sure what a zl1 runs 1/4 mile on a prepped track, or if chevys claim is on a prepped track.
Also to reiterate real world #'s, similarly optioned cars your talking about a 80k+ gt500 to a 65k zl1 (or possibly less if you get a good deal which isn't too hard). 15k isn't a small chunk of change

I didn't know about the fine print prepped surface stuff but it makes sense. With these horsepower rear wheel drive cars, they need it to achieve their potential.

Zr1 got a magazine 10.8 on an unprepped surface btw lol

[shaffe]

In terms of just pure performance on the stat sheet the Camaro has the Mustang's number, I am not sure why or how we are still debating that. I think the only place the Mustang might have the edge is the EB vs V6 but I am not sure.

GT vs SS M6 - SS clear advantage, I don't think that can be argued at all
GT vs SS A10 - needs to be the hotlap special GT A10 PP1*, other than that drivers race
SS1LE VS PP2 - PP2 puts up a fight but the 1LE is the better performing car and better equipped

GT350 ZL1 - we know how that comes out.

GT500 VS ZL1 still remains to be seen, GT500 should be faster in the 1/4 we will see on the course and teh CFTP the magazines are talking big game so lets see how it does

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

Ok you got me there. Point Blaq lol



This is all mean to just be friendly banter -

5.2L FPC V-8, over 500 HP NA, Carbon Fiber wheels (R) - still things that no other car offers in that price range.

And we need to go back to when it came out, it had more options, more hp, was faster than the Z/28 in the MT head 2 head. (LL Z/28 put better time) The GT350R undercut the Z/28 price by 12K and even if you loaded it up with options (which you couldn't do with the Z/28) was still around 6K cheaper than the Z/28. (yes short sighted goal) but that is what was out at the time, and at the time there was nothing like the Z/28 or the GT350R. The 350R took the Z/28 formula and did it better, offered the customer the chance to add back in the tech that was deleted if they wanted, performed better. 4 years ago there was nothing like those two cars and it put the world on notice that GM and Ford could build track cars. With the benefit of watching things unfold over the last 4 years yes we can say time has caught up and performance has passed the 350. yes when GM moved to the 6th gen they pushed the needle even farther and farther and bravo to them. They are building some of the best performing cars right now.


Like I said, it seems you only look at the bottom line of performance as the only thing that matters I am surprised you don't have a Tesla Model S lol.

Now I know it doesn't matter to you since bottom line performance is the only factor that is important but

GT350 and R has wins in magazine tests against the Z/28, ZL1, Porsche 718 Cayman, M2, Supra. The R finished second in Best Drivers Car as did the revised regular 350. It lost to the C7 in I think it was a C&D head to head that's pretty damn good company if you ask me.

There is obviously something very appealing about the car - that is where the stuff you say is totally made up comes from. People are still buying it, reviews still love it.

Are there better performing cars for the same or less moneys yes. No denying that, but the GT350 obviously has the it factor

And the point about the C8 losing to a Hyundai in PCOTY was just that, it's not just about all out performance. Same goes with MT best drivers car- it's not always the best performing car that wins- sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Fun to drive factor, how engaging it is etc etc. If it was just all about performance there would be no point in anyhead to head test, just run the tests, look at the stat sheet and that's the winner.

I guess the jist of what I am saying is, if I am buying a performance car and one is a better performer but the other one brings me more joy driving - I am gonna take the one that puts a bigger smile on my face because I am not always going to be in a situation where I need/can use all that performance.

But none of that seems to matter so I don't know why I bothered lol It's all good different strokes for different folks



LOL you will never change my mind about that when discussing them its MSRP to MSRP - to many variables in price paid to have consistent discussion

I agree with most of what you said.

I would prefer a gt350r over a z28 all day unless the plan was to make an n/a heads cam car down the road. Pretty comparable cars but the 350r just offers more for the money and it's a newer better chassis than the zeta on the z28.

Not knocking on the z28, still a badass car in its own right.

I still would have liked to have seen the ss 1le vs that gt350 when they put it against the c7 z51. The c7 beat it and the 1le is in many ways a better performer than the z51, but without the corvette or Shelby specialness.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by shaffe

In terms of just pure performance on the stat sheet the Camaro has the Mustang's number, I am not sure why or how we are still debating that. I think the only place the Mustang might have the edge is the EB vs V6 but I am not sure.

GT vs SS M6 - SS clear advantage, I don't think that can be argued at all
GT vs SS A10 - needs to be the hotlap special GT A10 PP1*, other than that drivers race
SS1LE VS PP2 - PP2 puts up a fight but the 1LE is the better performing car and better equipped

GT350 ZL1 - we know how that comes out.

GT500 VS ZL1 still remains to be seen, GT500 should be faster in the 1/4 we will see on the course and teh CFTP the magazines are talking big game so lets see how it does

Agreed. Though I do believe the a10 ecoboost high output spanks any v6 or i4 camaro in a straight line. Manual vs manual is close with the v6 1le. Regular ecoboost also beats the non 1le i4 camaro as well I think, idk.

Gt500 will deff win straight line, and maybe roadcourse against the zle as well. Remains to be seen.

[NW-99SS]

Originally Posted by shaffe

In terms of just pure performance on the stat sheet the Camaro has the Mustang's number, I am not sure why or how we are still debating that. I think the only place the Mustang might have the edge is the EB vs V6 but I am not sure.

GT vs SS M6 - SS clear advantage, I don't think that can be argued at all
GT vs SS A10 - needs to be the hotlap special GT A10 PP1*, other than that drivers race
SS1LE VS PP2 - PP2 puts up a fight but the 1LE is the better performing car and better equipped

GT350 ZL1 - we know how that comes out.

GT500 VS ZL1 still remains to be seen, GT500 should be faster in the 1/4 we will see on the course and teh CFTP the magazines are talking big game so lets see how it does

This exactly

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

5.2L FPC V-8, over 500 HP NA, Carbon Fiber wheels (R) - still things that no other car offers in that price range.

And we need to go back to when it came out, it had more options, more hp, was faster than the Z/28 in the MT head 2 head. (LL Z/28 put better time) The GT350R undercut the Z/28 price by 12K and even if you loaded it up with options (which you couldn't do with the Z/28) was still around 6K cheaper than the Z/28. (yes short sighted goal) but that is what was out at the time, and at the time there was nothing like the Z/28 or the GT350R. The 350R took the Z/28 formula and did it better, offered the customer the chance to add back in the tech that was deleted if they wanted, performed better. 4 years ago there was nothing like those two cars and it put the world on notice that GM and Ford could build track cars. With the benefit of watching things unfold over the last 4 years yes we can say time has caught up and performance has passed the 350. yes when GM moved to the 6th gen they pushed the needle even farther and farther and bravo to them. They are building some of the best performing cars right now.

And that was the problem with Ford. They needed a new platform, more HP, CF wheels, etc, to go up against an outgoing Z28 that GM had long since abandoned. Although I do not care for the Z28 one bit, GM did create it as a purpose-built track car that sacrificed a lot of creature comforts. It came out in 2014 and the last year for it was 2015. Ford then put out the GT350 and kept it going for years. The only time it seems that FOrd can beat Chevy is when they're fighting backwards against an old platform and when they have more tech and HP at their disposal. Even then they don't win by much. Or they get tied at something. Or they lose at something. Ford cannot clean sweep a Camaro unless everything is stacked in their favor and even then it is still questionable or they need an upgraded version that costs even more money to do it. Hence the CF GT500 at $94K. They are going up against a car from 2017, they have more HP, the car costs $25K more, and it is still not a guaranteed victory. And even then, if it does win at everything, you have to ask if the cost justifies the performance or if you can even buy one in the first place.

Originally Posted by shaffe

GT350 and R has wins in magazine tests against the Z/28, ZL1, Porsche 718 Cayman, M2, Supra. The R finished second in Best Drivers Car as did the revised regular 350. It lost to the C7 in I think it was a C&D head to head that's pretty damn good company if you ask me.

There is obviously something very appealing about the car - that is where the stuff you say is totally made up comes from. People are still buying it, reviews still love it.

I'm not one of those people. All this tells me is that people are very gullible and easily manipulated into spending money on something that does not exist. I don't care for ranting and raving. I don't care if every reviewer gets out of a car and declares that there is "something about it". If you can't show it to me, if you can't show me what I'm spending my money on, then I'm basically throwing money away. I could pour syrup on shit and call it "pancakes" and say it's the best thing you'll ever eat and there's just "something about it" and at the end of the day I'm selling you shit with syrup on it. And to each their own. If someone thinks there is some magical quality about the GT350 and that it gives them some sort of pleasure that can't be described and if they deem it worth thousands of dollars in markups on an already expensive car and if it gets smoked by a cheaper car with more options and if that person is happy, then hell, congrats to them. But if you can't show me what I'm paying for, then I gave you money for nothing.

Originally Posted by shaffe

And the point about the C8 losing to a Hyundai in PCOTY was just that, it's not just about all out performance. Same goes with MT best drivers car- it's not always the best performing car that wins- sometimes it is, sometimes it's not. Fun to drive factor, how engaging it is etc etc. If it was just all about performance there would be no point in anyhead to head test, just run the tests, look at the stat sheet and that's the winner.

Ok, then go buy a veloster and I'll go buy my C8. Again, talking about how "engaging" a car is means nothing to me. It might as well be made up. You ever hear about The Emperor's New Clothes? Exactly. If someone gets out of a slow ass car like a Veloster and starts talking about how "engaging" it is and claim it to be better than a C8 then I'd laugh in their face. I buy a performance car for performance. Don't tell me how "engaging" it is.

[ZRacerLE]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

And that was the problem with Ford. They needed a new platform, more HP, CF wheels, etc, to go up against an outgoing Z28 that GM had long since abandoned. Although I do not care for the Z28 one bit, GM did create it as a purpose-built track car that sacrificed a lot of creature comforts. It came out in 2014 and the last year for it was 2015. Ford then put out the GT350 and kept it going for years. The only time it seems that FOrd can beat Chevy is when they're fighting backwards against an old platform and when they have more tech and HP at their disposal. Even then they don't win by much. Or they get tied at something. Or they lose at something. Ford cannot clean sweep a Camaro unless everything is stacked in their favor and even then it is still questionable or they need an upgraded version that costs even more money to do it. Hence the CF GT500 at $94K. They are going up against a car from 2017, they have more HP, the car costs $25K more, and it is still not a guaranteed victory. And even then, if it does win at everything, you have to ask if the cost justifies the performance or if you can even buy one in the first place.

I'm not one of those people. All this tells me is that people are very gullible and easily manipulated into spending money on something that does not exist. I don't care for ranting and raving. I don't care if every reviewer gets out of a car and declares that there is "something about it". If you can't show it to me, if you can't show me what I'm spending my money on, then I'm basically throwing money away. I could pour syrup on shit and call it "pancakes" and say it's the best thing you'll ever eat and there's just "something about it" and at the end of the day I'm selling you shit with syrup on it. And to each their own. If someone thinks there is some magical quality about the GT350 and that it gives them some sort of pleasure that can't be described and if they deem it worth thousands of dollars in markups on an already expensive car and if it gets smoked by a cheaper car with more options and if that person is happy, then hell, congrats to them. But if you can't show me what I'm paying for, then I gave you money for nothing.

Ok, then go buy a veloster and I'll go buy my C8. Again, talking about how "engaging" a car is means nothing to me. It might as well be made up. You ever hear about The Emperor's New Clothes? Exactly. If someone gets out of a slow ass car like a Veloster and starts talking about how "engaging" it is and claim it to be better than a C8 then I'd laugh in their face. I buy a performance car for performance. Don't tell me how "engaging" it is.

Excellent post