[F1FTY]

Curious if that 335hp is typical bmw underrated

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

Curious if that 335hp is typical bmw underrated

The BMW is rated at 382/369 for the I6, they have completely different tuning. Per Toyota:

So when we developed the car, we weren't necessarily putting both vehicles together, from a development standpoint. We developed the [Supra] from a holistic perspective, so that the engine is balanced to the chassis, and vice versa. We feel right now that the 335 [horsepower] and 365 pound-feet of torque is quite good for what the car is from a power-to-weight ratio, from 0-60 acceleration standpoint. It's very balanced. It's a sports car methodology that we share with 86. The engine and chassis are in harmony with each other, and that development methodology is shared by the same Chief Engineer [Tetsuya Tada] between both cars.

I'm curious what price gap will exist between these two as the Z4 is quicker, has higher power figures, is a drop top, (subjectively) looks better. Better be large I6 to I6 if Toyota hopes to move any of these.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

The BMW is rated at 382/369 for the I6, they have completely different tuning. Per Toyota:

So when we developed the car, we weren't necessarily putting both vehicles together, from a development standpoint. We developed the [Supra] from a holistic perspective, so that the engine is balanced to the chassis, and vice versa. We feel right now that the 335 [horsepower] and 365 pound-feet of torque is quite good for what the car is from a power-to-weight ratio, from 0-60 acceleration standpoint. It's very balanced. It's a sports car methodology that we share with 86. The engine and chassis are in harmony with each other, and that development methodology is shared by the same Chief Engineer [Tetsuya Tada] between both cars.

I'm curious what price gap will exist between these two as the Z4 is quicker, has higher power figures, is a drop top, (subjectively) looks better. Better be large I6 to I6 if Toyota hopes to move any of these.

Right, I know but BMW has a history of underrating their turbo engines and Toyota is using their motor. They can say 335hp but I want to see the dyno.

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

Right, I know but BMW has a history of underrating their turbo engines and Toyota is using their motor. They can say 335hp but I want to see the dyno.

Bro, this is Toyota, not BMW. They haven't been known for underrating their engines since the 276hp Gentlemen's Agreement in the 90s. Quote was to illustrate the engines are the same components but completely different tuning. If they say 335 it's 335. Here's more of the interview, sounds like Toyota knows as much about the Z4 as the public.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/15/...er-and-weight/

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Bro, this is Toyota, not BMW. They haven't been known for underrating their engines since the 276hp Gentlemen's Agreement in the 90s. Quote was to illustrate the engines are the same components but completely different tuning. If they say 335 it's 335. Here's more of the interview, sounds like Toyota knows as much about the Z4 as the public.

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/15/...er-and-weight/

I know you’re using what’s available right now in the media but let’s see what the dyno actually says, ok?

We will also learn what parts are actually different between the two engines.

It could be only the tune and you could be right that Toyota decides to detune the shared engine platform with the same components but that’s hard for me to believe in today’s world of CO2 and FE targets. It costs millions of dollars to change horsepower and get it recertified to those standards. Why would Toyota pay that for significantly less hp when they could just underrate?

I’m also curious about a 4.1 0-60 time on a ~3400 lbs car with 335hp

[DaveC113]

Their claimed 0-60 times only sound reasonable if it's really hp at the wheels, no way 335 crank hp in 3400 lbs w/rwd is going that fast.

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Their claimed 0-60 times only sound reasonable if it's really hp at the wheels, no way 335 crank hp in 3400 lbs w/rwd is going that fast.

Way to focused on HP. It's got 80% of the torque of a SS (365/455), 90% of the weight (3400/3700), and goes 0-60 .1/sec slower. Sounds like it puts power to the ground more efficiently, not some underrating conspiracy.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Way to focused on HP. It's got 80% of the torque of a SS (365/455), 90% of the weight (3400/3700), and goes 0-60 .1/sec slower. Sounds like it puts power to the ground more efficiently, not some underrating conspiracy.

I know you mean well but it doesn’t stop my questions from being valid and needing more data.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Way to focused on HP. It's got 80% of the torque of a SS (365/455), 90% of the weight (3400/3700), and goes 0-60 .1/sec slower. Sounds like it puts power to the ground more efficiently, not some underrating conspiracy.

Lol, NOT too focused on HP, it's the definition of how much power is available to do work and the MAIN fact5or in acceleration times, esp 1/4 mile.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a FACT that Germans underrate power.

Your assumption that this isn't happening with the Supra is likely wrong due to claimed acceleration times, but we'll see for sure when they get on dynos.

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by DaveC113

Lol, NOT too focused on HP, it's the definition of how much power is available to do work and the MAIN fact5or in acceleration times, esp 1/4 mile.

It's not a conspiracy, it's a FACT that Germans underrate power.

Your assumption that this isn't happening with the Supra is likely wrong due to claimed acceleration times, but we'll see for sure when they get on dynos.

Yes, yes, let the hate flow...

...on a serious not, again (or should I say AGAIN), we're not talking the Z4 here, wer're talking Supra (or 5upra). They said there was, at minimum, a completely different tune on it v. the Z4. See the above quote, from Toyota, not (or NOT) conjecture. Toyota was given access to a parts bin with none of the engineering/tuning/associated knowledge of those parts. All sides (or ALL 5ides) have said as much. They haven't been known for fudging dyno numbers in over 20 years, why would the suddenly start?? The 335 is from Toyota, not BMW. Raging out about how BMW's practices mean Toyota is fudging their HP figures (while completely ignoring torque, the determining factor for acceleration [try Google sometime, friend] is quite entertaining.

[F1FTY]

Originally Posted by lawguy85

Yes, yes, let the hate flow...

...on a serious not, again (or should I say AGAIN), we're not talking the Z4 here, wer're talking Supra (or 5upra). They said there was, at minimum, a completely different tune on it v. the Z4. See the above quote, from Toyota, not (or NOT) conjecture. Toyota was given access to a parts bin with none of the engineering/tuning/associated knowledge of those parts. All sides (or ALL 5ides) have said as much. They haven't been known for fudging dyno numbers in over 20 years, why would the suddenly start?? The 335 is from Toyota, not BMW. Raging out about how BMW's practices mean Toyota is fudging their HP figures (while completely ignoring torque, the determining factor for acceleration [try Google sometime, friend] is quite entertaining.

Shared platforms are why they could fudge hp. My point really is just that I wouldn’t rule it out with the facts provided so far. This isn’t a Toyota Supra from the 1990’s, it’s largely a BMW sourced and engineered vehicle.

One of the things I used to benchmark were 0-60 powertrains for VWoA for target setting on new engine strategy. Not “raging out”, just going off of history with German power ratings (DIN vs. SAE) Not sure why you’re willing to make a hill to die on here.

[soyboy]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

Shared platform costs are why they would fudge hp.

One of the things I used to benchmark were 0-60 powertrains for VWoA for target setting on new engine strategy. Not “raging out”, just going off of history. Not sure why you’re willing to make a hill to die on here.

This is absolutely correct... Toyota has to provide numbers that will jive with BMW due to the shared DNA with the Z4. Case in point is this article:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/14/...ted-0-60-time/

BMW underrated the Z4's 0-60 time, but had to revise it (initially stated 4.4, now 3.9 sec) yesterday after the Supra's numbers were revealed, because the Z4 has more HP than the Supra and it doesn't make sense that it would be slower.

[BoostinFD]

This Supra is a huge disappointment compared to the old one. Looks fUgly. People will buy it because of the name, but in reality, it's just a BRZ on steroids.

[lawguy85]

Originally Posted by F1FTY

Not sure why you’re willing to make a hill to die on here.

...because we have facts. But for some reason facts don't matter anymore. Just call something fake, in spite of all the evidence, and people fall in line, lock step. And we have reason, but reason no longer matters either. Only the "feeling" that Toyota is lying (because BMW does?) matters. Not the concrete numbers I provided. Not the physics of torque being the metric with more correlation to acceleration. None of that actual evidence matters and it's maddening, not in I'm upset, I'm genuinely baffled at the complete disregard for empirical data and official quotes from Toyota. My brain genuinely hurts because it cannot comprehend the hand waving going on.

Originally Posted by soyboy

This is absolutely correct... Toyota has to provide numbers that will jive with BMW due to the shared DNA with the Z4. Case in point is this article:

https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/14/...ted-0-60-time/

BMW underrated the Z4's 0-60 time, but had to revise it (initially stated 4.4, now 3.9 sec) yesterday after the Supra's numbers were revealed, because the Z4 has more HP than the Supra and it doesn't make sense that it would be slower.

This makes the opposite point you think it makes. BMW underrated their 0-60 and only corrected it once Toyota released theirs. More simply put, this proves we should trust what Toyota is saying because BMW revised their numbers in the face of Toyota's, not vice versa. Ergo, we should absolutely believe Toyota that the Supra has 335hp and look more skeptically at BMWs, as BMW has proved to be conservative, not Toyota.