Gen6 ZL1 vs 2019 Hellcat, Power increase possibly - Page 6

DevilsReject97 · 02-13-2019, 07:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

I guess the 300000 Durango, Dodge caravans, and Journeys that Dodge has sold under their banner don’t apply? Dodge sold 452k vehicles last year, and at one time Ram was under the Dodge Banner as well.

GM should have done more than they did but corvette is not to be upstaged. One time it was upstaged by Buick but never again.

You clearly missed it. I made mention of the Ram and Caravan which sold just fine. However, I was commenting on what Dodge is RIGHT NOW. They really don't have anything that is selling GREAT other than the Challenger/Chargers. The new Durango is doing meh, despite being a nice SUV.

Should GM have done more? Sure... I'll agree to it...but you act like we got a lump of coal..

Quote:

Originally Posted by newmoon

Yes and that strategy of building a complete performance car is working out well for them, if it weren't for the interior and exterior design it might be no. 1 in sales instead of no. 3

Dollar for dollar, the Camaro itself is the best high HP sports car you can buy in America. The 2019 redesign is complete shit, and I'll agree with you on that all day. The 2016-2018 look was perfectly fine, and while yes it resembles the 5th gen, was not an issue that really needed correcting. The interior is not my favorite, and we'll agree there.

Aside from that, I still say the biggest issue has been the fact that they overpriced the car from day 1...and it's never recovered...

rocket403 · 02-13-2019, 09:08 AM

I think you missed my Point the Durango, Caravan, and Journey all have Dodge in front of their names, unless you are only referring to the Cars that are under the Dodge banner and exclude everything else.

I will say that the Camaro is the best at only One thing and that is the Track, it is the least practical out of the 3 (Camaro, Mustang and Challenger) and sales show that as Camaro has lost 25% of their volume in sales. I have no interest in the new Camaro and as a GM guy from a GM family wait for the day that GM pulls it head from the sand and offer a bigger 5 seat car (Monte or Chevelle) instead of a small tight car with no back seat and no usable trunk.

Think of all the great cars GM made and now we are down to two 2 seater offerings from Chevy if you want a V8 rear drive car, Dodge has shown that there is a market for a larger car.

DevilsReject97 · 02-13-2019, 12:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

I think you missed my Point the Durango, Caravan, and Journey all have Dodge in front of their names, unless you are only referring to the Cars that are under the Dodge banner and exclude everything else.

To start, the Caravan is no longer made, and it no longer wears a Dodge logo to boot. The Journey was junk, was never a great selling vehicle. The same goes for the Dodge Nitro, the Dodge Avenger, and the Dodge Dart. The Durango is averaging roughly 65k units a year since 2015...which is solid, but not great. The Chevy Equinox sold more units last year (2018) than the new gen Durango has sold in its last 4 years combined.

Essentially, Dodge makes other things...but the only great selling vehicles they have are the Challenger/Charger...

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

I will say that the Camaro is the best at only One thing and that is the Track, it is the least practical out of the 3 (Camaro, Mustang and Challenger) and sales show that as Camaro has lost 25% of their volume in sales. I have no interest in the new Camaro and as a GM guy from a GM family wait for the day that GM pulls it head from the sand and offer a bigger 5 seat car (Monte or Chevelle) instead of a small tight car with no back seat and no usable trunk.

Only the best at one thing? I would argue it's the best at the track and the strip, because you dont have to do anything to do it (in any form) to run it hard. Are there faster cars? Sure...but that doesn't necessarily make them better.

As for a daily driver, I will of course agree that my 5th gen was more roomy, and perhaps a tad more useful. The Challenger is a lovely car to ride in and comfortable, but it also weighs almost a half ton more than the Camaro or Mustang. Still, that is a legitimate issue and I won't argue that point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

Think of all the great cars GM made and now we are down to two 2 seater offerings from Chevy if you want a V8 rear drive car, Dodge has shown that there is a market for a larger car.

While I do agree with you in that there is a market for it, I think it comes with a disclaimer. It has to be a big HP RWD car. If it were simply a V8 RWD car, I don't think that's enough to get people to buy them.

If GM had sold a LT4 powered version of the SS sedan (or something similar) or even a LT5 variant of the Camaro, both would sell quite well. Why? Because people want those types of cars...

What they don't want are blah blah blah 350 hp V8s..

Martinjlm · 02-13-2019, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DevilsReject97

To start, the Caravan is no longer made, and it no longer wears a Dodge logo to boot. The Journey was junk, was never a great selling vehicle. The same goes for the Dodge Nitro, the Dodge Avenger, and the Dodge Dart. The Durango is averaging roughly 65k units a year since 2015...which is solid, but not great. The Chevy Equinox sold more units last year (2018) than the new gen Durango has sold in its last 4 years combined.

Essentially, Dodge makes other things...but the only great selling vehicles they have are the Challenger/Charger...

…....

Agree with all this EXCEPT....

https://www.dodge.com/2019/grand-caravan.html

rocket403 · 02-13-2019, 01:24 PM

Close to 100k sales of the Journey 152k for the Grand Caravan and 66k for the Durango to match the total sales of the Challenger. The Durango SRT is a much better SUV and can tow more than anything GM has.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

6spdhyperblue · 02-13-2019, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

Close to 100k sales of the Journey 152k for the Grand Caravan and 66k for the Durango to match the total sales of the Challenger. The Durango SRT is a much better SUV and can tow more than anything GM has.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Id rather tow with a body on frame and sra. Regardless of those stats. Not to poopoo on it. I like the durango

rocket403 · 02-13-2019, 02:00 PM

I wanted the Durango when I picked up my Ram but FCA wouldn't move on the price, I wanted the SRT and it was in the 80's and it was not realistic to pay that amount. So ended up with a Copperhead for 30k less.

DevilsReject97 · 02-13-2019, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

Agree with all this EXCEPT....

Yeah, looks like they extended the run by a year....it's now slated to be discontinued in 2019.. it was originally slated to die in 2018 if I recall right.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

Close to 100k sales of the Journey 152k for the Grand Caravan and 66k for the Durango to match the total sales of the Challenger. The Durango SRT is a much better SUV and can tow more than anything GM has.

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

The facts are the Challenger sells more cars than the rest of those you listed, hence my point. It doesnt make them crap, just that the Challenger/Charger sell better.

I love the new Durango, it would be my ideal choice of an SUV.... I wanted a 1st Gen one badly...

Martinjlm · 09-04-2019, 08:39 AM

This video is what I imagine happens in the BlaqWhole household on Sunday mornings....

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/...se-race-video/

rocket403 · 09-04-2019, 09:15 AM

The driver of the Hellcat is running the same times as some of the times of the Challenger 1320 I have posted, I think if you switched drivers in that match up it would have been a very different outcome.

NW-99SS · 09-04-2019, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martinjlm

This video is what I imagine happens in the BlaqWhole household on Sunday mornings....

http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/...se-race-video/

LOL - and it would be fun every Sunday!

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

The driver of the Hellcat is running the same times as some of the times of the Challenger 1320 I have posted, I think if you switched drivers in that match up it would have been a very different outcome.

Both are auto on stock tires...they are a close matchup on hp/weight. Can't assume a 1320 would run hero times at the track in this example.

rocket403 · 09-04-2019, 09:39 AM

I'm not sure guess this must be a hero time then, Challenger is the faster car at the strip even though it is heavier car. These cars were run at the same track in BC Canada.

NW-99SS · 09-04-2019, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocket403

I'm not sure guess this must be a hero time then, Challenger is the faster car at the strip even though it is heavier car. These cars were run at the same track in BC Canada.

I guess I should have been more clear - but we can break down each track by prep, DA, weather, etc. Or take into account what the average Hellcat or ZL1 runs at each specific track. My local track is a heartbreaker track - tough for anyone to match magazine times due to elevation mostly. Prep is good, but we don't see hero runs ever.

My point is that claiming a 1320 can run that time isn't really accurate - unless you can show one running that time at the same track and in the same weather.

rocket403 · 09-04-2019, 09:54 AM

I just showed a 1320 running 11:95 and this same car has run an 11:87 if I remember correctly so not sure how any of my statements are incorrect. The 1320 is a 11:90 car so that Hellcat needed a driver.

So at the Same track as the ZL1 Camaro a 1320 is running .1 behind it.

09-04-2019, 08:39 AM	#79
Martinjlm Retired from GM Drives: 2017 Camaro Fifty SS Convertible Join Date: Mar 2017 Location: Detroit Posts: 5,229	This video is what I imagine happens in the BlaqWhole household on Sunday mornings.... http://gmauthority.com/blog/2019/09/...se-race-video/ __________________ 2017 CAMARO FIFTY SS CONVERTIBLE A8 \| MRC \| NPP \| Nav \| HUD \| GM Performance CAI \| Tony Mamo LT1 V2 Ported TB \| Kooks 1-7/8” LT Headers \| FlexFuel Tune \| Thinkware Q800 Pro front and rear dash cam \| Charcoal Tint for Taillights and 3rd Brakelight \| Orange and Carbon Fiber Bowties \| 1LE Wheels in Gunmetal Gray \| Carbon Fiber Interior Overlays \| Novistretch bra and mirror covers \| Tow hitch for bicycle rack \|

02-13-2019, 09:08 AM	#72
rocket403 Drives: 80 Cutlass 403, 2010 FF RT Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 921	I think you missed my Point the Durango, Caravan, and Journey all have Dodge in front of their names, unless you are only referring to the Cars that are under the Dodge banner and exclude everything else. I will say that the Camaro is the best at only One thing and that is the Track, it is the least practical out of the 3 (Camaro, Mustang and Challenger) and sales show that as Camaro has lost 25% of their volume in sales. I have no interest in the new Camaro and as a GM guy from a GM family wait for the day that GM pulls it head from the sand and offer a bigger 5 seat car (Monte or Chevelle) instead of a small tight car with no back seat and no usable trunk. Think of all the great cars GM made and now we are down to two 2 seater offerings from Chevy if you want a V8 rear drive car, Dodge has shown that there is a market for a larger car.

02-13-2019, 01:24 PM	#75
rocket403 Drives: 80 Cutlass 403, 2010 FF RT Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 921	Close to 100k sales of the Journey 152k for the Grand Caravan and 66k for the Durango to match the total sales of the Challenger. The Durango SRT is a much better SUV and can tow more than anything GM has. Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

02-13-2019, 02:00 PM	#77
rocket403 Drives: 80 Cutlass 403, 2010 FF RT Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 921	I wanted the Durango when I picked up my Ram but FCA wouldn't move on the price, I wanted the SRT and it was in the 80's and it was not realistic to pay that amount. So ended up with a Copperhead for 30k less.

09-04-2019, 09:15 AM	#80
rocket403 Drives: 80 Cutlass 403, 2010 FF RT Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 921	The driver of the Hellcat is running the same times as some of the times of the Challenger 1320 I have posted, I think if you switched drivers in that match up it would have been a very different outcome.

09-04-2019, 09:54 AM	#84
rocket403 Drives: 80 Cutlass 403, 2010 FF RT Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Ontario Posts: 921	I just showed a 1320 running 11:95 and this same car has run an 11:87 if I remember correctly so not sure how any of my statements are incorrect. The 1320 is a 11:90 car so that Hellcat needed a driver. So at the Same track as the ZL1 Camaro a 1320 is running .1 behind it.

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