[bpang1234]

Originally Posted by KingLT1

Lethal Camaro just swapped from a P1 to a Whipple. He was having cooling issues with the P1 because he was pretty much overdriving it for his power levels imo. I believe he said the Whipple is more noticeable in the low to mid range power and part throttle driving. So you get to feel the power under more driving conditions, where the Procharger you will only notice the power increase when going WOT for the most part. Many folks tend to only focus on peak power when that is only a small percentage of the overall driving experience with a street car. Power under the curve is where it's at and PD superchargers excel in this area.

I have a custom tune on mine and my tuner focused most of his time on part-throttle. It feels SO MUCH better than the OTS map that came with it. I still prefer it to the Whipple/Maggie mostly because it helps me apply power when exiting corners onto straightaways which is the one thing that I am least confident about having driven AWD cars for 15 years before this thing.

[Turbo_RORO]

Originally Posted by Drsagacity

Oh damn...

I just speak from my experience. And when it comes to this platform very few owners have more experience.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

Not going to comment on pro's/con's but can we put to bed the notion that PD blowers "blow the tires off"?

If you have crappy tires and make power you are going to spin in lower gears PERIOD. Most Centri guys are going to get mild converters so they can hit harder off the line anyways. Also when pullied correctly the Centri's should have enough low end grunt to give sub-par tires/road surfaces fits regardless.

Damn you Shizzy.

You know that making this kind of comment will bring out the keyboard tough guys who have successfully run mid-12’s and know all the answers...geesh.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by Turbo_RORO

I just speak from my experience. And when it comes to this platform very few owners have more experience.

Of course. People with real experience pretty much say the same thing as you and Shizzy have expressed here...those Internet researchers/tough guy/racecar drivers...they will make sure to teach you. So sit back and learn...

[MR 45TH]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

Not going to comment on pro's/con's but can we put to bed the notion that PD blowers "blow the tires off"?

If you have crappy tires and make power you are going to spin in lower gears PERIOD. Most Centri guys are going to get mild converters so they can hit harder off the line anyways. Also when pullied correctly the Centri's should have enough low end grunt to give sub-par tires/road surfaces fits regardless.

Completely agree

[steelheadrob]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

Not going to comment on pro's/con's but can we put to bed the notion that PD blowers "blow the tires off"?

If you have crappy tires and make power you are going to spin in lower gears PERIOD. Most Centri guys are going to get mild converters so they can hit harder off the line anyways. Also when pullied correctly the Centri's should have enough low end grunt to give sub-par tires/road surfaces fits regardless.

I second this as well. I have had the Whipple installed for a month or so, my first supercharged vehicle. Reading some of the comments had me thinking I would blow my tires off every time I touched the throttle. Simple not the case, you learn the car, drives like stock when you want it to, and you feel the torque when you want. And of course you can blow off the tires if you slam the gas down at every stop light. Went PD this time, next time might go Centri just to try something different but very happy with Whipple.

[oldman]

So basically the PD has unusable torque because it can't be used. Of course it goes without saying if you don't floor it, you won't blow the tires away, but then again you are not using the 600 ft -lbs hence the word "unusable". Not once did I ever say or infer that the PD can't be driven. To be clear the PD can't put WOT down in the first two gears with any normal street tire.

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

If you have crappy tires and make power you are going to spin in lower gears PERIOD.

If you define "crappy tire" as anything less than 00 drag radials and a prep track. That is a 100% accurate statement.


On summer street tires a centri can supply all the power that is ever going to hit the ground, at any normal streetable speed PERIOD. Anything outside of WOT in 1st gear say at 5 MPH, and during each shift the centri is complete and totally in the boost / power range. I can no longer use no lift shift as the car would be upside down, in any streetable shift range. Please we are talking hicomp direct injection V8, here, there is NO lag with either setup, the PD's "advantage" can't be used with street tires.

The only thing that would seem to be true is that on a dragstrip with slicks / 00 drag radials, sans converter the PD does have an advantage. Only in this fully qualified statement is where all 600 ft -lbs can hit the strip. That as not me or most members here, so I'll defer to the guys that are doing it. At this range it is cubic money anyway and the centri guy is just going for converter and / or gears and the cycle never ends.

Originally Posted by bpang1234

I have a custom tune on mine and my tuner focused most of his time on part-throttle. It feels SO MUCH better than the OTS map that came with it. I still prefer it to the Whipple/Maggie mostly because it helps me apply power when exiting corners onto straightaways which is the one thing that I am least confident about having driven AWD cars for 15 years before this thing.

Now to applying the power to the ground turn exit, you must be a better driver than me or any 1LE at my local autoX cause none of us can use more that the stock torque / HP on turn exit. Please I know at least someone is going to post how they drift on the street with no traction control.

The car has great traction control and it tends to straighten the car when applying power on the street, but to say that a PD can supply some sort of corner or turn exit either on the autoX with no traction control or on the street (with traction control) has no reality on the street or autoX.

If you are talking road race, then I'll defer to you, as my local road race is only slightly better than the local autoX. At least it has hills..... So a fully qualified statement would be " a properly tuned PD on a road race with a good driver with proper tires and suspension will feel and probably have some advantage on turn exit. " Probably so, not in my realm of experience.


So nutshell, outside of some very specific setups, I don't see any reason to go from centri to PD. Of course if you are on the fence like I was, ADM's LT4 conversion is at a great price / performance point. Add in the LT1 has more CR a larger cam and hence responds better that even the OEM LT4. I would have gone this route because I do like the more linear feel of a flat torque curve and instant (1/4 to 1/2 second) better response of a PD. If you are doing this for drag racing, dunno lots of guys here have PD, turbo, centri and / or N2O, I think it is a cubic money issue at some point vs which is a better setup.

[Dysan911]

Originally Posted by oldman

I can no longer use no lift shift as the car would be upside down, in any streetable shift range.

FWIW.. I was always scared to try the NLS after getting the Procharger. Really enjoyed using it NA but I finally got up the nerve to give it a shot and OMG it works awesome with the Procharger. No issue with it at all here.

P.S. Oldman. Sent you a PM last Saturday about your LT Header install that I think you wrote up. Not sure if you ever got it.

[ShizzySupra]

Why would any person do power adders then get frustrated about traction if they were using non sticky tires? No offense Oldman but you seem to be very argumentative on the forums.

Come take a ride with me I will show you how you can put the power down and make 800lb/ft "usable" on the street.

Originally Posted by oldman

So basically the PD has unusable torque because it can't be used. Of course it goes without saying if you don't floor it, you won't blow the tires away, but then again you are not using the 600 ft -lbs hence the word "unusable". Not once did I ever say or infer that the PD can't be driven. To be clear the PD can't put WOT down in the first two gears with any normal street tire.



If you define "crappy tire" as anything less than 00 drag radials and a prep track. That is a 100% accurate statement.


On summer street tires a centri can supply all the power that is ever going to hit the ground, at any normal streetable speed PERIOD. Anything outside of WOT in 1st gear say at 5 MPH, and during each shift the centri is complete and totally in the boost / power range. I can no longer use no lift shift as the car would be upside down, in any streetable shift range. Please we are talking hicomp direct injection V8, here, there is NO lag with either setup, the PD's "advantage" can't be used with street tires.

The only thing that would seem to be true is that on a dragstrip with slicks / 00 drag radials, sans converter the PD does have an advantage. Only in this fully qualified statement is where all 600 ft -lbs can hit the strip. That as not me or most members here, so I'll defer to the guys that are doing it. At this range it is cubic money anyway and the centri guy is just going for converter and / or gears and the cycle never ends.





Now to applying the power to the ground turn exit, you must be a better driver than me or any 1LE at my local autoX cause none of us can use more that the stock torque / HP on turn exit. Please I know at least someone is going to post how they drift on the street with no traction control.

The car has great traction control and it tends to straighten the car when applying power on the street, but to say that a PD can supply some sort of corner or turn exit either on the autoX with no traction control or on the street (with traction control) has no reality on the street or autoX.

If you are talking road race, then I'll defer to you, as my local road race is only slightly better than the local autoX. At least it has hills..... So a fully qualified statement would be " a properly tuned PD on a road race with a good driver with proper tires and suspension will feel and probably have some advantage on turn exit. " Probably so, not in my realm of experience.


So nutshell, outside of some very specific setups, I don't see any reason to go from centri to PD. Of course if you are on the fence like I was, ADM's LT4 conversion is at a great price / performance point. Add in the LT1 has more CR a larger cam and hence responds better that even the OEM LT4. I would have gone this route because I do like the more linear feel of a flat torque curve and instant (1/4 to 1/2 second) better response of a PD. If you are doing this for drag racing, dunno lots of guys here have PD, turbo, centri and / or N2O, I think it is a cubic money issue at some point vs which is a better setup.

[JoshuaHyperblue2ss]

I came from a 2003 Mustang Cobra whippled making little less whp but about 60rwtq more then I currently run.

I have to say the street driveability of my Camaro just cruising around town is 10 times better then my cobra.


I find it more controllable. I do miss the high pitch whine of my old whipple. However, I do not miss the constant breakage of suspension parts. Those IRS were junk.

Only regrets I have currently on my pro charger is I didn't wait a month later for the p1x and I didn't get the race vavle option..


Other then that I am very happy with my Procharger. Yes, and the tune that came with pro-charger had lots of issues. Probably because its a canned tune.

Once I had the custom tune done. The Camaro shifts 10 times more smoothly and I don't have idle and starting issues.


I also say, from all the drag racers I talked to.. They say that centri stay cooler then PD's.

I know that is a big debate but when I go watch the drag races here 80% of them run Centri.

[oldman]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

Why would any person do power adders then get frustrated about traction if they were using non sticky tires? No offense Oldman but you seem to be very argumentative on the forums.

Come take a ride with me I will show you how you can put the power down and make 800lb/ft "usable" on the street.

Funny you just made my point. The centri has a more usable torque curve, so there is less "frustration" on street tires. I don't know why saying 600+ ft lbs can't be hooked on summer tires makes me "argumentative". The guy wants opinions I have his EXACT setup, so I offer my opinion. Now if this was a full prep drag race package with an automatic, I would have less to know opinion (pun intended), as there are many guys (like you) here with far more experience.

If you are defining sticky tires as 00 drag radials preheated and a prepped track, the question is why indeed would you opt for a PD in any other condition? Check the thread topic. Jumping ship, why? Well unless you are talking 00 drag radials or slicks + prep track the is absolutely no reason to jump ship (maybe road course). Under either condition (drag strip or road race) it is a $$ contest, not a PD vs centri contest.

99.99% of the people are on at best plain summer tires. I'm not "frustrated" with traction. I'm merely pointing out that 600+ ft lbs is not hookable on the street with street tires. So the point that the PD makes that and early on is completely moot for the vast majority of Camaro drivers.


I would be afraid of anybody that thinks 800 ft lbs is "usable" on the street. I think I will opt out of the ride, thanks.


To the original poster. I was in the same boat as you, I have an M6 too, I like the linear instant torque, price and factory look of the ADM setup. I think 1st gear can use some help. That said I went with the centri for many reasons including tuner support for Pray as well as I was installing it myself. On sticky summer tires the base boost centri, headers, ported heads and blower cam, is IMO all that can be hooked and the car is a handful. I would look to a

1) new head unit with a smaller than the default 4.1 pulley, fuel (low side and high side), tune of course.
1a) 305 summer tires in the rear
2) if you need more power, I would then do headers and then ported heads.
3) Last I would do a blower cam with fuel lobe.

At stage 3, this should exceed any ability to ever hook on summer tires at an legal speed.

Advantages of the above, is the stage 1 is really easy DIY, headers are not too bad either. I would put the ADM set up there on install difficulty with ported heads, so this is probably be a shop setup for most people. I would probably ask myself what tuner support I have, as it will be the tuner that makes either go. I've heard only good things about ADM and their setup. I've have great support from Pray on his package.

[ShizzySupra]

^^^King has spoken ya'll. Case closed.

[bpang1234]

Originally Posted by oldman

If you are talking road race, then I'll defer to you, as my local road race is only slightly better than the local autoX. At least it has hills..... So a fully qualified statement would be " a properly tuned PD on a road race with a good driver with proper tires and suspension will feel and probably have some advantage on turn exit. " Probably so, not in my realm of experience.

You're correct to defer to me, because my statement was in regards to actual track days not autocross or the street. VERY different set of circumstances and I wouldn't have bothered to add this much power for just autocross, can't even use it.

Also, most track days are not road races and the percentage of people who road race is significantly smaller since it takes a lot of work to qualify to actually race wheel-to-wheel with no point-by. I don't think I'll ever get up to that point.

[Drsagacity]

Originally Posted by ShizzySupra

^^^King has spoken ya'll. Case closed.

Oldman,

I am thrilled that you have so much experience running different solutions that you feel you have the expertise to give advice. That’s great. What’s your best quarter mile time to date? I am assuming you have put down some numbers with a previous build because surely someone who has a sole qualification of running a 12 second quarter mile and making a decision to buy a blower isn’t qualification enough for you to feel comfortable giving advice?

You keep saying that someone has “proved your point” when we say that you have to be careful in gear. You do realize that the torque/Hp curves are repeated in every gear, right? So, let’s say that in first gear, the centri and the PD blower both have to be careful so they don’t blow the tires off. For certain a PD blower will have more tire shredding power immediately in 1st. But, what happens in 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th? In every shift when the PD blower with the same boost level has 100wtq advantage in a completely useable gear, what happens to acceleration in each of those gears when you compare the two cars?

Even if you have never been to the track, never raced on the street, clearly you can see how having more power under the curve results in more useable power throughout a given run, right? Does it make sense to you that throughout a run, having more power under the curve is important, not just for the first traction limited gear, but every gear.

Further, if there is a limit to the power that is useable on the street then does that similarly mean that when a person adds a converter or ups the boost on a centri blower, that is also a worse setup than the base setup? In other words, a centri blower running 7 psi runs 550rwhp. A person running 10psi has 650whp, well the 10 psi Procharger now has similar tq to the PD...does that mean the Procharger is unusable with 10psi? So, in your opinion, it’s always foolish to add more power than the stock Procharger kit provides...

Have fun with your setup. Happy you enjoy it...the Procharger is a blast. You don’t have to completely make shit up to justify your decision. Perhaps stick to what you like about your setup instead of commenting on other setups with which you have no expeince.