[2010REDSS]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I understand your point that Chevy could have done something to increase power in the gen5 ZL1. Even short of a LS9, there was a lot of potential in the LSA they didn’t tap.

My point is that Chevy Performance wasn’t idle and accomplished far more than Ford in the intervening time (below)

12 ZL1
13 1LE
14 Z/28
14 C7
15 Z06
16 SS Alpha
17 1LE
17 ZL1
18 ZL1 1LE
19 ZR1
?? Z/28
?? C8

12 Boss 302
13 GT500
15 GT S550
15 GT350
17 Ford GT.
18 GT refresh
?? GT500 (Bueller?)

Some of the same engineers work on both Corvette and Camaro. Project planning and funding have a horizon of 3 to 5 years. When the 13 GT500 arrived the plan for the 17 ZL1 was in place so was there value in gen5 ZL1 redo compared to what they did between 12 and 17?

Now consider the S550 and how little it has accomplished from 14 to 18. The SS gapped the GT by almost a full second (1/4) with chassis tuning that put it into a different league. The 18 GT has only managed to catch up and even that is questionable after the PP1 did so badly.

At introduction, the GT350 looked like a tremendous performance bargain at its starting msrp of $49.9k. That level was quickly exposed and dropped and compared to what Chevy accomplished with its $45k 1LE, the $56k non-R underperforms terribly.

Chevy performance has moved forward at a much faster pace than Ford. Period!

Sorry for late reply. Like you, been busy and this required time

+1

Nailed it. Great post.

[BradfordCamaro]

The planning for the next generation of vehicles and powertrains is more than 3-5 years.
I build automotive seats and we are already on setting up for 2022. The manufacturer already has the car done by the time we get the drawings.
Im sure the design guys and engineers had this for awhile before we got it.
If one auto manufacturer has 2022 done.... Im sure GM does too. And beyond

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

I understand your point that Chevy could have done something to increase power in the gen5 ZL1. Even short of a LS9, there was a lot of potential in the LSA they didn’t tap.

My point is that Chevy Performance wasn’t idle and accomplished far more than Ford in the intervening time (below)

12 ZL1
13 1LE
14 Z/28
14 C7
15 Z06
16 SS Alpha
17 1LE
17 ZL1
18 ZL1 1LE
19 ZR1
?? Z/28
?? C8

12 Boss 302
13 GT500
15 GT S550
15 GT350
17 Ford GT.
18 GT refresh
?? GT500 (Bueller?)

Some of the same engineers work on both Corvette and Camaro. Project planning and funding have a horizon of 3 to 5 years. When the 13 GT500 arrived the plan for the 17 ZL1 was in place so was there value in gen5 ZL1 redo compared to what they did between 12 and 17?

Now consider the S550 and how little it has accomplished from 14 to 18. The SS gapped the GT by almost a full second (1/4) with chassis tuning that put it into a different league. The 18 GT has only managed to catch up and even that is questionable after the PP1 did so badly.

At introduction, the GT350 looked like a tremendous performance bargain at its starting msrp of $49.9k. That level was quickly exposed and dropped and compared to what Chevy accomplished with its $45k 1LE, the $56k non-R underperforms terribly.

Chevy performance has moved forward at a much faster pace than Ford. Period!

Sorry for late reply. Like you, been busy and this required time

If you want to say Chevy performance did more I guess can't argue you there they did put out more vehicles. You also did leave out the Raptor, Fiesta ST, Focus ST and Focus RS.

My point is once they release a vehicle, they don't go back and tweak it, other makers seem to be willing to go back and make changes to existing models. GM does not. Lets just say the GT500 comes with 740HP and blows away the ZL1 in every measurable statistic. If I was I betting man, the trend would say GM will not tweak the ZL1 and put the LT5 in it.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

If you want to say Chevy performance did more I guess can't argue you there they did put out more vehicles. You also did leave out the Fiesta ST, Focus ST and Focus RS.

My point is once they release a vehicle, they don't go back and tweak it, other makers seem to be willing to go back and make changes to existing models. GM does not. Lets just say the GT500 comes with 740HP and blows away the ZL1 in every measurable statistic. If I was I betting man, the trend would say GM will not tweak the ZL1 and put the LT5 in it.

My counter point was Chevy moved forward and applied the resources better.

Its likely Chevy already has the outline for the gen7 ZL1. So, yes. They won't look back

Focus.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

My counter point was Chevy moved forward and applied the resources better.

Its likely Chevy already has the outline for the gen7 ZL1. So, yes. They won't look back

Focus.

I got you. I just think it's a bad strategy. Especially when they have something they could use, to me just makes it look worse.

And you can knock the Focus and Fiesta performance variants, go drive one lol. They are insanely fun for what they are lol

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I got you. I just think it's a bad strategy. Especially when they have something they could use, to me just makes it look worse.

And you can knock the Focus and Fiesta performance variants, go drive one lol. They are insanely fun for what they are lol

It looked worse for Ford to follow the 13 GT500 with a gen6 S550 that was equivalent to the outgoing Zeta Camaro. That wasn't just the GT either. The GT350R matches up closely with the old Z/28. The base GT350...fugetaboutit. Then they took 3 years to just shore up the deficit.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by hotlap

It looked worse for Ford to follow the 13 GT500 with a gen6 S550 that was equivalent to the outgoing Zeta Camaro. That wasn't just the GT either. The GT350R matches up closely with the old Z/28. The base GT350...fugetaboutit. Then they took 3 years to just shore up the deficit.

You can say what ever you want about the 350R, I don't think any one can deny it's only purpose was Ford's entrance in a d*** measuring contest to say we can build a NA track car too to the boys down the street at GM. Bad idea to only target the outgoing Z/28 yeah no denying that.

Either way at the end of the day I just don't like how GM has had options they could have used and haven't.

[Bhobbs]

GM is too rigid.

If you aren’t Corvette or Cadillac, you only have a little box to work in.

[Spurshot]

Going back into this thread a bit...I don't know why all the hubbub about blown vs N/A for the Z28 or, for that matter, the ZL1.

If some of you can recall, the ZL1 was an engine designation for the all aluminum 427 which first showed up in a street car in 1969, primarily based on the naturally aspirated Can Am engine driven by the likes of Jim Hall, Bruce McLaren, and Dennis Hulme. So a ZL1 smaller displacement that is blown isn't consistent with the old days either. A ZL1 Camaro today would be more consistent with its roots if it had a N/A 427.

As for a Z28 with a 427, that cuts against its roots too. The Z28 was known for its small block 302 c.i. engine that could buzz high for the road courses on the Trans Am circuit, kinda in the same way the Voodoo GT350 engine does.

So Chevy hasn't been consistent with the use of the ZL1 or Z28 monikers other than to use them for high performance.

[Spurshot]

Originally Posted by shaffe

You can say what ever you want about the 350R, I don't think any one can deny it's only purpose was Ford's entrance in a d*** measuring contest to say we can build a NA track car too to the boys down the street at GM. Bad idea to only target the outgoing Z/28 yeah no denying that.

Either way at the end of the day I just don't like how GM has had options they could have used and haven't.

Yeah, ain't it cool? If it weren't for this rivalry of Camaro vs Mustang, there would be no ZL1 and no Z28 or even SS. It's great to see Ford push the bar up a notch, then Chevy respond or visa versa. As to the GT350 chasing the Z28, just remember; the current GT350R came along when the Gen5 Z28 was just a year or so old.

[RLHMARINES]

Originally Posted by Spurshot

Yeah, ain't it cool? If it weren't for this rivalry of Camaro vs Mustang, there would be no ZL1 and no Z28 or even SS. It's great to see Ford push the bar up a notch, then Chevy respond or visa versa. As to the GT350 chasing the Z28, just remember; the current GT350R came along when the Gen5 Z28 was just a year or so old.

The Z/28 was out of production and the 6thgen Camaro debuted when the 350R went into production early into the '16 model year as a 2015/2016 model with deliveries beginning in November of '15.

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by Spurshot

Going back into this thread a bit...I don't know why all the hubbub about blown vs N/A for the Z28 or, for that matter, the ZL1.

If some of you can recall, the ZL1 was an engine designation for the all aluminum 427 which first showed up in a street car in 1969, primarily based on the naturally aspirated Can Am engine driven by the likes of Jim Hall, Bruce McLaren, and Dennis Hulme. So a ZL1 smaller displacement that is blown isn't consistent with the old days either. A ZL1 Camaro today would be more consistent with its roots if it had a N/A 427.

As for a Z28 with a 427, that cuts against its roots too. The Z28 was known for its small block 302 c.i. engine that could buzz high for the road courses on the Trans Am circuit, kinda in the same way the Voodoo GT350 engine does.

So Chevy hasn't been consistent with the use of the ZL1 or Z28 monikers other than to use them for high performance.

They called the 5th gen car ZL1 because they didn’t have anything else.

The Z/28 used the 302 because Trans Am riles required less than 305 cubic inches. In 1970, the displacement cap was raised to 355, so the Z/28 used the LT-1 350.

[GrimReaperSS]

The 5th gen Z/28 did continue that high revving legacy as the 1st gen small block 302 and the 2nd gen small block 350 LT1. Its also used a HIGH REVVING SMALL BLOCK LS7 that happens to have 427 c.i.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I got you. I just think it's a bad strategy. Especially when they have something they could use, to me just makes it look worse.

And you can knock the Focus and Fiesta performance variants, go drive one lol. They are insanely fun for what they are lol

Fun like how? Riding the bamboo shoot at Astroworld when you were a kid fun? Cus I'm not sure how one can hop out of a 800 hp Zl1 and find driving a Focus and Fiesta fun.