[DGthe3]

Originally Posted by SuperSound

Someone needs to do their excel wizardry and get us the effective gearing chart with that info now.

I'll take a crack at it this evening, if nobody else does.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Yes, You're missing what can't be any more obvious......


The only reason GM chose the A8 slushbox for sports car was because it was a "free transmission" from the truck division.
This isn't an assumption. This is a direct quote from a face to face conversation I had with one of the powertrain engineers.
They all wanted a DCT, but the budget wasn't approved.

You're missing the point. It's not that it was a free transmission so they saved money.

If they designed a all new DCT transmission that cost would have been built into the cost of the Corvette, so now the Corvette costs 5-10k more and they are out of the price range for a lot of people.

All so they could have a slightly faster shifting transmission that drove like shit when they weren't racing it.

They used the a8 because it was common sense. Drives really nice, offers 90% of the performance. But I'm sure if it offered even 99% of the performance you would still whine and complain all across every board.

Which reminds me, I blocked you...How are you not blocked? Damnit.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wyndham

I don't recall this being posted, yet...

Attachment 794753

9th and 10th are basically the same. Looks more like a 9 speed to me. Since the gears ratio is a combination of things, not a single gear I'm sure they wouldn't spread 9th and 10th out any more.

[crabman]

The DCT costs would have been spread across GM in all suitable cars, not hanging strictly on Corvette. You can figure the V-Cads, Camaro, Corvette, possibly SS. Once you have it you could put it in your entry level sporting stuff as well.

Still none of that matters because back when they were clamoring for it was during the bailout and the money simply wasn't there. They had no choice but to work with what they had. It would seem that the development of one in the future is unlikely to me because they are winning the war with ad copy that gets swallowed hook, line, and sinker by average consumers who don't even know that they can claim anything they want for transmission performance since no standard exists.

Something to think about is that DCTs already can shift faster than they do but are held back in programming. There are finite limits in place for potential shift speeds based on materials technology as it exists today, in other words there is no possible way with current technology to make a cost effective drive line that can hold up long term under the shift speeds that DCTs could shift if OEMs wanted them to right now. This driveline durability limit is the actual limits of shift speed today for automatics as well, they just haven't got there yet.

Some of you are missing the best thing about DCTs though, they don't feel like an automatic when you drive them. They feel like what they are, a bucket full of gears. For sporting cars they are much more fun IMO and that opinion is shared by everyone I know in the real world that has experienced both. People get hung up on numbers and forget we drive these things for a reason, to have fun.

[Zeke.Malvo]

Originally Posted by crabman

The DCT costs would have been spread across GM in all suitable cars, not hanging strictly on Corvette. You can figure the V-Cads, Camaro, Corvette, possibly SS. Once you have it you could put it in your entry level sporting stuff as well.

Still none of that matters because back when they were clamoring for it was during the bailout and the money simply wasn't there. They had no choice but to work with what they had. It would seem that the development of one in the future is unlikely to me because they are winning the war with ad copy that gets swallowed hook, line, and sinker by average consumers who don't even know that they can claim anything they want for transmission performance since no standard exists.

Something to think about is that DCTs already can shift faster than they do but are held back in programming. There are finite limits in place for potential shift speeds based on materials technology as it exists today, in other words there is no possible way with current technology to make a cost effective drive line that can hold up long term under the shift speeds that DCTs could shift if OEMs wanted them to right now. This driveline durability limit is the actual limits of shift speed today for automatics as well, they just haven't got there yet.

Some of you are missing the best thing about DCTs though, they don't feel like an automatic when you drive them. They feel like what they are, a bucket full of gears. For sporting cars they are much more fun IMO and that opinion is shared by everyone I know in the real world that has experienced both. People get hung up on numbers and forget we drive these things for a reason, to have fun.

I've driven a couple of the DCT's available in the M3's, and I thought they were pure crap. They do not drive or respond like stick shifts at all. Maybe a Porsche PDK is world's better, but I would rather have a standard automatic than what BMW offered that's for sure. But I would still take a manual transmission any day over an automatic. Paddle shifting is no fun and and misses completely on the experience a manual transmission provides.

[Johnman]

I think it's odd that Ford would develop such a transmission when it has a longtime policy of not offering automatic transmissions on it's top performance models (Shelbys, ST's, the new Focus RS, etc.). Is that policy going to change now?

[mjw930]

Originally Posted by Johnman

I think it's odd that Ford would develop such a transmission when it has a longtime policy of not offering automatic transmissions on it's top performance models (Shelbys, ST's, the new Focus RS, etc.). Is that policy going to change now?

Because it's a truck transmission and since they have moved to small displacement turbocharged engines on the truck platform they need more gears to keep the engines in the power band and get the fuel economy they need.

[HumanWiki]

Originally Posted by 20171LE

Block me all you want. But, it won't change the fact that everything I post is true.
Now that they're are $100k+ Corvettes and $75k+ Camaros, the "cost"excuse for not offering a DCT is a joke.
But, if GM can simply get the Camaro A10 to shift immediately when the paddles are pulled, I am in for one on

It's like you just want to be on suspension again. I've had you previously ignored as well.

[HCT]

Originally Posted by Johnman

I think it's odd that Ford would develop such a transmission when it has a longtime policy of not offering automatic transmissions on it's top performance models (Shelbys, ST's, the new Focus RS, etc.). Is that policy going to change now?

Well, the transmission will be important for their full size trucks if nothing else.

That said, if they don't put the auto into the GT500 they're leaving a lot of money on the table. In the Hellcats current take rate for the auto is about 60%. There's a poll in the Camaro6 forums for the ZL1 and auto is running about 2 to 1 there over manual.

I remember raising the question in the GT350 forum of the 10 speed and the general reaction was "no way, we want to shift for ourselves" -- which makes sense, it's a self-selecting sample. But most world-class sports cars either have an option for an auto or only come with auto. The voodoo motor with its low rotational inertia would be amazing with the 10-speed.

[IOMike]

Originally Posted by HumanWiki

It's like you just want to be on suspension again. I've had you previously ignored as well.

When you quote him, I can see his posts too...otherwise it's blocked.

He's a clueless know it all. How do you debate with someone who is clueless but refuses to even consider that he is wrong?

You can not get a better performing car for the money than a Camaro SS or Corvette if you're buying new. Everything about them is world class except the transmission is only considered "one of the best available" and not (by some) the very best.

OMG TOTALLY NOT ACCEPTABLE!!!!!

[crabman]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I've driven a couple of the DCT's available in the M3's, and I thought they were pure crap. They do not drive or respond like stick shifts at all. Maybe a Porsche PDK is world's better, but I would rather have a standard automatic than what BMW offered that's for sure. But I would still take a manual transmission any day over an automatic. Paddle shifting is no fun and and misses completely on the experience a manual transmission provides.

No, there is no substitute for a manual, no automated shifting device is ever going to give you that experience. But then I never once mentioned them and the omission was purposeful, Start down that road and the thread is as good as dead. I was referring to the feel of the car in gear, it is quite different than the feel of a slushbox going down the road.

[clanky]

Originally Posted by HCT

Well, the transmission will be important for their full size trucks if nothing else.

That said, if they don't put the auto into the GT500 they're leaving a lot of money on the table. In the Hellcats current take rate for the auto is about 60%. There's a poll in the Camaro6 forums for the ZL1 and auto is running about 2 to 1 there over manual.

I remember raising the question in the GT350 forum of the 10 speed and the general reaction was "no way, we want to shift for ourselves" -- which makes sense, it's a self-selecting sample. But most world-class sports cars either have an option for an auto or only come with auto. The voodoo motor with its low rotational inertia would be amazing with the 10-speed.

Ya i'm actually really surprised about the poll results so far! I know this new A10 is going to be game changing for sure, but I guess we'll see how good as soon as people can get their hands on it.

Needless to say even if it is super amazingly awesome. I can't have my wife driving my car around and I just miss having a stick. lol.

[HCT]

Originally Posted by Zeke.Malvo

I've driven a couple of the DCT's available in the M3's, and I thought they were pure crap. They do not drive or respond like stick shifts at all. Maybe a Porsche PDK is world's better, but I would rather have a standard automatic than what BMW offered that's for sure. But I would still take a manual transmission any day over an automatic. Paddle shifting is no fun and and misses completely on the experience a manual transmission provides.

I've seen "transmission wars" break out a bunch of time in web forums, generally ending with a lot of name-calling. Here's my take:

Driving a stick is inarguably the most involving and emotional way to drive a sports car. Anyone who denies that is ignorant or a troll.

And up until a few years ago, a stick was also the best choice for both fuel economy and maximum performance. But those days are long gone. Anyone who thinks a manual gearbox can yield lap times or 1/4 mile times on par with the best auto boxes is ignorant or a troll.

The Porsche PDK is pretty much the gold standard in auto transmissions. It's not just the speed of full throttle upshifts; GM has already demonstrated faster upshifting. It's the super-responsive programming too: the transmission is always in the right gear on the track. Check out this quote from the Best Driver's Car competition a couple of years ago:

Let’s discuss specifics, starting with the amazing dual-clutch transmission, the second-gen Porsche PDK. “Just brilliant,” coos Kiino. “No matter how you want to drive — relaxed or spirited — the PDK just seems to know and it functions perfectly.”

So true. I blew turn 6 pretty badly one lap and, at the very moment I was starting to think, “I should probably downshift,” the PDK did exactly that. It was almost spooky, like having a co-driver working the transmission for me. And, unlike the unit on the GT-R, the Porsche’s transmission software is so good that you don’t even need to pull the paddles. Of course, you can and, in Sport+, the relatively weak 911 (just 400 hp and 325 lb-ft of torque, yet hits 60 mph in 3.7 seconds!) mule-kicks nearly as hard as the Aventador when you flick it into second. “I’ve just been obsoleted!” exclaimed Pobst. “Years of practice and training to learn how to shift a car have now become completely unnecessary. And, in fact, that, to me, is a little bit sad.” Sure, if you still feel the need to row your own, Porsche makes a 911 with a seven-speed manual, but please believe me, PDK is the way to go.

Plus DCT transmissions can do a trick that's impossible with torque converter autos: when they downshift they have two gears engaged simultaneously and switch from one to the other using dual clutches. That leads to downshifts that upset the chassis less -- it's physically impossible for a traditional auto to match that: the faster it downshifts the more abrupt it is and the more likely it'll upset the chassis diving into a turn. No amount of clever programming can get around that.

But the knock against many DCTs is that they can be grabby just driving around normally so it's understandable that GM wanted a torque converter unit. Besides, by being able to amortize the costs of this transmission via their trucks, it ultimately will cost way less per unit.

[OldJedi]

I do not want to be a downer in here but I'm going to wait to see how the auto does in the real world before I make any decisions one way or the other. I purposely waited for the A8 to come out in the 2015 Corvette. I heard a lot of the same things being tauted now about shifting faster than a PDK, world class transmission on the road or the track, etc. In the real world, the A8 overheated the first time I took it to the track for an HPDE. It has been well documented that Corvette A8 transmissions have a problem during track use. It is a great street transmission! I love the way it holds gears for short durations and will drive all day at 150 degrees. But as soon as you start pushing it, it starts to warm up very quickly.

When they talk about the special lubrication used in the A10, it might be costly. When I changed out the tranny fluid in mine after it over heated, it was 10 quarts at $37.00 per quart! I have no idea if it is the same fluid or not but I am pretty sure that it is not standard transmission fluid.

I do realize that the Camaro transmission location is not the same as the Corvette trans axle location and that there are multiple heat exchangers on the Camaro that are not on the Corvette. I'm just going to be wary before I drink the Koolaide.

I have met Aaron Link and he is is one of the nicest guys you will ever meet. We spoke for quite a while about ZL1 development at a Camaro Fest. I trust what he says about the A10 and how well it works, but I'm going to be cautious and wait for further results.