[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by shaffe

I was thinking about this on the drive home the other day. Ford concentrated on building a better coupe first, then performance car. Chevy built a better performance car first then coupe

Originally Posted by radz28

You said that SO much better than I did, HAHAHA.

Cheers for nailing it, boys. We(I) can talk trash all I want about performance, and most of my talk in is response to the BS hype and fanboi talk of how well it will perform and kick the Camaro's butt.

The Mustang, while behind the Camaro, still has more performance potential than I could ever take advantage of, so that would never impact my decision to buy one. The price does though, especially when I look at what a ZL1 costs.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by radz28

I don't disagree. That in my perception, too.

But - I think Ford has, perhaps, found the better balance of performance, in that they want the consumer to feel like they've got high performance, even though, objectively, they might not have. They don't need to necessarily beat Camaro performance - they just have to make it feel like it's the same, or close enough.

Pretty much every bit of the 6th Gen is as much a no-compromise effort as Team Camaro could make it. For example - maybe they took out every millimeter of roof line as they could and shrunk the windows as small as they could be, maybe both for looks and for mass control. But - that no-compromise effort was for performance at the sake of comfort and ergonomics. Team Camaro made a car for enthusiasts, not consumers (yes - we're consumers, but we are the minority). Everyone who's not a Camaro person, or appreciates performance and style bleets-on about the stupid pill box view and all that crap. I can understand their argument, and I can even agree to an extent. I think the general consumer is proving they agree, too.

So - Ford built a Mustang that didn't offend customers as much. Dynamically - on the whole, the Mustang isn't as good as Camaro. However - it is easier to live with every day and that will sell more cars (especially when Chevy couldn't advertise for crap, unlike MOPAR, for example) than having to put up with the compromises you have with Camaro. If they tried to beat Camaro benchmarks (at least that have to do with everyday-type stuff), they'd have a harsher-riding car that would beat the customer up, rather than be just harsh enough that if feels fast, really but isn't. Because Ford is better at presenting the perception of performance, at least this time. They couldn't make a car that could perform better than Camaro without making it like Camaro, thereby scaring away consumers that just weren't that serious about actual performance.

JMO.

Very well said!

[LSA]

Has Throttle House ever posted the thread depth for the allegedly worn tires?

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by radz28

You said that SO much better than I did, HAHAHA.

I saw something a while ago that speculated that GM was going to spin Corvette-off, kind-of on it's own. That would leave Camaro as the RWD performance car (i.e. also, affordable) for Chevy, perhaps opening up some performance potential that, maybe before, wasn't completely allowed to matriculate down from Corvette (because it was the RWD Chevy performance car). Maybe, with Corvette moving into supercar country (i.e. not as affordable, duh), Camaro could be elevated into 'Vette's old position, and gain some more backing. We see $70k-plus models now, so maybe, with 'Vette moving into more expensive waters, Camaro might start seeing models that get into RE and GT500-prices. That could open the door to more power and technology. C8 engines - Gen IV MRC, etc.

The Vette really is in a league of it's own now that the C8 is here. However I wonder if this move is to alienate it from being the Camaro's "Big Brother" and attracting a different client base. And I wonder how this would affect the current client base.

Originally Posted by LSA

Has Throttle House ever posted the thread depth for the allegedly worn tires?

Unfortunately they did not. Which is again why I doubt that it was on worn tires. Randy says the GT500 would have won if not for the tires. Yet they didn't put up how badly the tires were worn or even how much they think the GT500 would have won by.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The Vette really is in a league of it's own now that the C8 is here. However I wonder if this move is to alienate it from being the Camaro's "Big Brother" and attracting a different client base. And I wonder how this would affect the current client base.

It will be interesting to see. Me as a corvette fan and wanting it as one of my dream cars, was so glad to see it be priced reasonably still. I think if they ever tried to position Camaro as a replacement for what the Corvette used to be, they would fail.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by LSA

Has Throttle House ever posted the thread depth for the allegedly worn tires?

No they haven't, but unless there were different tires for the photoshoot portions of the video then they don't look very worn at all. Someone did point out that the ZLE had some PS4S on the front for the photoshoot portions so who knows.

[Lafourche1]

I'll just point out that the Sport Cup 2 tires are notorious for one hero lap and then dropping off pretty quickly. Also, they are shaved tires. By that I mean, they have much less tread depth, to begin with, than a normal tire. That holds true for the GY SC3 and more so for SC3R. Unless there are real high definition, close-ups, it is hard to tell how much the tires may have been worn. One or two big heat cycles may be enough for the Cup 2 tires to have been heat cycled out.

[TheRealJA105]

Yes, sport cup 2s are famous for 1 hero lap (some people are ignorant to this fact), but if they heat cycle out after 1 or 2 times they are complete garbage.

[BlaqWhole]

Here is the thing. RP said the tires were already worn pretty badly. So they didn't bring it there, get a wicked run around the track, then run it on the quarter mile, and then say it had badly worn tires. It had badly worn tires from the very start. Does anyone truly believe that you could drive a car this heavy and with this much HP around a track safely if the tires were THAT badly worn? That is not only irresponsible but extremely dangerous. That is why I am having trouble believing those statements. AM I to believe that RP took that car out on the track in such an unsafe condition? And looking at it launch from a stop, if those tires were worn, there is no way it would grip well enough to beat a Hellcat. On top of not telling us exactly how worn down they were, there is just too much to question.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

No they haven't, but unless there were different tires for the photoshoot portions of the video then they don't look very worn at all. Someone did point out that the ZLE had some PS4S on the front for the photoshoot portions so who knows.

I posted a reply with 2 time stamps showing the Z with the stock GYs on it.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Unfortunately they did not. Which is again why I doubt that it was on worn tires. Randy says the GT500 would have won if not for the tires. Yet they didn't put up how badly the tires were worn or even how much they think the GT500 would have won by.

The 500 came from Ford right? I'm assuming that it had good tires. However if it was in track alignment (pretty sure it was) and the Throttle House guys drove it that way for several days and were doing burnouts and stuff then to Randy they may have indeed been "worn".

But Randy is a professional driver and if he didnt think the tires were good enough to track then I doubt he would track it. Also I'm pretty sure he gets new tires every time he drives for MTs track testing so having "worn" tires would have been noticeable to him.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

The 500 came from Ford right? I'm assuming that it had good tires. However if it was in track alignment (pretty sure it was) and the Throttle House guys drove it that way for several days and were doing burnouts and stuff then to Randy they may have indeed been "worn".

But Randy is a professional driver and if he didnt think the tires were good enough to track then I doubt he would track it. Also I'm pretty sure he gets new tires every time he drives for MTs track testing so having "worn" tires would have been noticeable to him.

But that's just it, RP was the one who said the tires were "well cooked". So I will concede that maybe they were in the range where they're safe to drive aggressively on but are not gonna give the best performance. I automatically took it that he was saying the tires were bald or something. My mistake. That being the said I still don't think it was a fair statement to make without any info on how "well cooked" they actually were. I still feel like it was a cheap way for Ford to get out of losing. No other car arrived on tires in that condition except for the GT500. Suspicious.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

But that's just it, RP was the one who said the tires were "well cooked". So I will concede that maybe they were in the range where they're safe to drive aggressively on but are not gonna give the best performance. I automatically took it that he was saying the tires were bald or something. My mistake. That being the said I still don't think it was a fair statement to make without any info on how "well cooked" they actually were. I still feel like it was a cheap way for Ford to get out of losing. No other car arrived on tires in that condition except for the GT500. Suspicious.

I watched the video and it seems like he noticed it right away. Which makes me suspicious as well. If both front and rear tires were cooked then why was it there? If this 500 was privately owned and had worn tires then I would think ok they are driving and enjoying it. (Which is what I originally thought).

If FORD sent a 500 for testing against a ZLE and a Redeye why send it with shit tires? Makes no sense. I don't want to suggest that it was a built in excuse for being slower but why? This was your flagship halo model CFTP 500. If a tire failed and Randy crashed that would have been disastrous. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

[vtirocz]

Originally Posted by LSA

It's silly to blame the loss on worn tires without any objective info on the tires. To go one step further and say the 500 would've won on new tires is silly squared.

If you're going to blame the outcome on the tires then tell us about the tires. What was the tread depth? How many miles were on them (and how many were street vs track). In the various shots where you can see the tires, the tread appears to be quite deep. Provide a decent quality image of the tires.

I agree. This video was entertaining, but these guys (including Randy) lost some serious credibility with the tire excuse and then speculating the finish order at the track would certainly change if one car were on fresher tires. There was no attempt to provide some evidence to support that claim.

As mentioned above, they should have provided some data on all the cars tires tread depth (vs. new)j, general condition, and maybe some close-up photos. Not ensuring both cars were set to the manufacturer's alignment specs for track usage was another pretty big miss.

[RobbyBeefcake87]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

I watched the video and it seems like he noticed it right away. Which makes me suspicious as well. If both front and rear tires were cooked then why was it there? If this 500 was privately owned and had worn tires then I would think ok they are driving and enjoying it. (Which is what I originally thought).

If FORD sent a 500 for testing against a ZLE and a Redeye why send it with shit tires? Makes no sense. I don't want to suggest that it was a built in excuse for being slower but why? This was your flagship halo model CFTP 500. If a tire failed and Randy crashed that would have been disastrous. Doesn't seem worth it to me.

*puts on tin foil hat*

Maybe there's an unspoken agreement between them and Ford. If the gt500 loses you spin a reason as to why, if not we won't loan you another car lol

A little far fetched, just like sending a car on shot (are well cooked shot or just not optimal?lol) to compete against it's rivals.