[crankaholic]

Originally Posted by Doc

The 5th gen concept car was the vision of a single designer; it had nothing to do with committees, focus groups or polls. It wasn't perfect, but the moment I saw it I wanted one; it didn't have to 'grow' on me. It was a huge hit right out of the gate. Sangyup Lee, the original designer is no longer with Chevy.

What I'm seeing now is just confirmation of what I've felt has been going on ever since they did the first 'refresh'. This latest refresh to me, just illustrates the sad fact that the Chevy design department has no idea what to do with the Camaro. They have no vision of what a Camaro truly is or should be. The engineering team has delivered a spectacular performer; best high-performance sports gt America has ever produced. The body and interior however, just don't rise to the same level of brilliance.

I'm a Camaro fan. Blue Angel is still in my garage. It'll be 9 years now since I first picked it up after ordering it sight-unseen. I'd never driven one or seen one before I ordered it in May of 2009. I just knew I wanted it, and I've never regretted that decision. It pains me to see the design department floundering around with inconsistent, "I wonder if they'll like this?" attempts to modify the Camaro's looks and style.

Chevy's problem is they've priced the car into territory that has some seriously stiff competition. In September of last year, I bought a brand new Alfa Romeo Giulia Ti Lusso. It's Monte Carlo Blue with a Crema interior that's a stunning combination of Italian leather and real walnut. It came with a 280 hp turbo 4, and a chassis that's flat-out the best I've ever experienced. The car was designed by a team of Ferrari and Maserati engineers, and developed and tested in Ferrari's development center and wind tunnel. Essentially, it's a 4 door Ferrari. The price? The base model starts at about $39k, and the one I got which has just about every option you can get, retailed for about $53k. Their top performer, the Giulia Quadrifoglio has the Ferrari V6 with 505 hp, goes 190 mph and starts at about $75k.

For the same $50k, there's no comparison between the Camaro SS and the Giulia Ti. The Camaro has more power and would out-perform the Giulia on the track, but only because of horsepower. The steering and chassis of the Giulia is simply incredible. However... the body and interior of the Giulia exudes refinement, class and style. Pictures don't come close to doing it justice. When you see one in person the styling radiates beauty; a beautiful Italian sculpted masterpiece, with consistent lines and styles from front to back, and inside too. This car clearly was designed by people who had a distinct idea and understanding of what a modern Alfa Romeo should look like and be. All Giulia's, even the base model, come with a carbon fiber driveshaft standard.

Just because the Giulia was designed by Ferrari and Maserati designers, that shouldn't make that much difference. A pencil and sketchpad costs the same no matter what you're designing. Chevy's problem is a lack of vision. They just don't know what to do with the Camaro, which is sadly starting to make it look like the 5th gen was a fluke; inotherwords, they basically got lucky.

I haven't been in this forum for awhile, but I remember having discussions with Number 3 about the need for Chevy to re-invent the pony car and come out with a base Camaro that positions itself back in the sweet spot of the market base it used to be in. It's now gotten to the point where they're going to be in trouble with this car, unless they pull a pretty big rabbit out of their hat. It's getting killed in the price segment it's sitting in now. Track performance isn't enough. You can't really use that kind of performance on the street anymore, and how many people actually take their car to a track?

Keep the high performance models, but come out with a new vision of a re-invented Camaro pony car. The $40k-$80k affluent customer is not at all like the $20k-$30k customer. They are much more demanding, and they can be, because every car maker is going out of their way to cater to them. This includes style, features and looks; not just track performance.

Mark Reuss, or whoever is in charge of the Camaro... PLEASE find a designer with a vision! Forget polls and focus groups. That only leads to design that looks like something the government would do. No more toy robot crap. No more design by committee with 5 different groups in charge of 5 different parts of the car.

Compare what $50k gets you from the new Camaro SS versus the Alfa Romeo Giulia, and this is just in the style and looks department, which believe me, is seriously important to the buyer who can spend $50k:

Alfa Romeo Giulia:
Attachment 930781

Has a definite look of identity to the heritage of Alfa Romeo, yet is clearly a modern design. The cabin is spacious and has good visibility. Very comfortable to be in. A pure joy to drive.


2019 Camaro SS:
Attachment 930782

Everyone's already said enough about the front. The body side is too high, the cabin height is too squashed. Looks out of proportion.


Alfa Romeo Giulia interior:
Attachment 930783

Attachment 930784

Elegant. The display is beautifully integrated into the dash. Steering wheel has the start button on it, and is modern but retains a classic feel.


2019 Camaro:
Attachment 930785

Is this supposed to be some kind of a military look? Thick chunky steering wheel looks like something out of a truck. And the screen... really? Looks like an add-on someone bought at Auto-Zone. For $50k?


The fact that when you start it up, it runs and handles like cars twice it's price, just isn't enough to save it's image. Looks matter. People buy on the basis of how it makes them feel when they look at it. If Chevy doesn't figure this out with the 7th gen, it may be the last Camaro, only this time for real.

I have to agree with you there... I love the QF level of performance the SS gets you over the standard Giulia, but most people don't care as much. Since they ruined the classic muscle car look of the Camaro, just make it more modern and fix that greenhouse. People care about these things when shopping for a car, even those that care about performance.

[90503]

Keep dreaming about high-end interiors for Camaro. They can't get past Buick and Cadillac in the GM pecking order, much less compete with foreign brands.

It gives us the low-end models for 25-30K, though...The 50K range for Camaros is to pay for performance, hp, and track-duty. The highest priced ZL1-1LE probably has the most Spartan interior of them all....(Not to mention the 5thGen Z/28)...

Camaro will out-perform all the others, but never have the same level of interior refinement and appointments.

For the sake of Buick and Cadillac, GM will not allow it.

[PH3688]

This is car is exactly why you dont focus test with fanboys.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Dolby109

Doc - I think you are taking things a step too far. The Camaro starts at $26k with the 275hp 4-cyl which likely matches the base Giulia in performance.
Naturally the Camaro is going to have a cheaper interior, but I think that interior is absolutely on par with other $26k cars.
Keep in mind the Alpha chassis is every bit as good as the Giulia's.
At $45k Level the SS 1LE is already faster on track than the Giulia Quadrifoglio, despite having a near 50hp disadvantage, so there is no way your car without the Quadrifoglia suspension and tires handles as well.
So the Giulia is a really nice driving car, but that $15-30k premium is for the interior. For a better comparison you could look at an ATS which isn't quite on par with the Giulia interior wise but still improved over the Camaro.

It's more than just the base cost. I also don't know why it has to be automatic that the Camaro should have a cheap interior.

I wouldn't be so sure that the Alpha chassis is as good as the Giulia. Go test drive a Giulia, then come back here and let us know what you think. The 1LE is a track model; comparing that to a street model Giulia is not a fair comparison. However, the Giulia Ti Sport is something else again. It's no slouch. Go test drive one. Words can't begin to describe the sophistication of the chassis and how it drives. It's fantastic for the street, which is what the vast majority of buying customers care about. I bought it for my daily driver.

Yes the extra money is the premium for all the options but that's the point. For the exact same money, the Giulia is far better in looks and style. That's where the Camaro is suffering. Incredible chassis and performance, with distinctly not incredible looks and style to match.

Note the only area where you could defend the Camaro; performance. I didn't question that. It's performance is great, and I clearly said so in my comment. It needs more than that to succeed in the marketplace however. We're all enthusiasts here but we're not blind. We've been seeing the troubling sales trends just like the execs at GM have. This refresh tells me they don't understand why the curve is steadily declining. They also apparently don't get why Dodge's curve is steadily trending upward.

Don't worry about the performance; they've already got that in spades. Make the car look great inside and out. Not hokey movie car great, but truly great. Don't even think about impressing 8 year olds. Focus on what the Camaro is; what it was when it first came out, and what it meant and means to the people who buy one. It's like they've done a George Lucas after the success of the first Star Wars movie. He thought it was the special effects, and delivered Jar Jar Binks. He couldn't have been more wrong.

Get back to the basics; the true essence of what made the pony car/muscle car craze so popular in the first place.

[TrackClub]

Doc, will all due respect you need to see a doc.
SS is not a $50G car. I paid about $35usd for my SS 1LE. With PDR.

Julia is a nice car. But its styling is very average imo and the shape reminds me of old Taurus.
The interior may be comprised of higher grade materials (it better be for the price) but styling wise i dont see anything special here.

Bottom line this thread is now going in full circles including renders. This is a refresh not a redesign. The body overall still looks the same as gen 6 albeit some trim pieces have changed and gave it a new look.
Love it or hate it - it is what it is. A major thing is that there are 3 distinctive looks for a Camaro now. Hopefully those will resonate with a broad market better than the previous ones. Hopefully GM will price them right too.

[TrackClub]

NB Dodge's sales curve hasnt been steadly going up. It has been flat. But thats a win given both Stang and Camaro have been going down. Just fyi Stang sales have decreased steadly since 2015. From some 125k to 81k last yr. And heading downwards so far this yr after the refresh. Pony and coupe sales have suffered across all marquees with some names having seen drops that way over shadow the Stang and Camaro percentage wise. So there is more at play here which is relative to suv/cuv gaining ground as dd choices for more and more folks. This makes 2 door cars even a smaller niche market than before. And this trend will continue - zero doubt.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by TrackClub

Doc, will all due respect you need to see a doc.
SS is not a $50G car. I paid about $35usd for my SS 1LE. With PDR.

Julia is a nice car. But its styling is very average imo and the shape reminds me of old Taurus.
The interior may be comprised of higher grade materials (it better be for the price) but styling wise i dont see anything special here.

Bottom line this thread is now going in full circles including renders. This is a refresh not a redesign. The body overall still looks the same as gen 6 albeit some trim pieces have changed and gave it a new look.
Love it or hate it - it is what it is. A major thing is that there are 3 distinctive looks for a Camaro now. Hopefully those will resonate with a broad market better than the previous ones. Hopefully GM will price them right too.

1SS starts at almost 38k usd. you must have gotten it on a great sale. add the 1LE that's another 7k on top of that. must be nice!

[Boost Creep]

I always thought the Camaro was more of a performance type car versus a luxury type car. They always had a base car and then performance models like the SS and Z28, never remember an upscale model. If you wanted plush interior you went to Cadillac, and at one time if you wanted performance and luxury, you got a Buick GS.

And if you wanted a fancy Camaro, you got a Firebird.

[Dolby109]

Doc, I am not saying the Giulia doesn't have a great chassis, but based on all of the reviews from people more qualified than me, the Giulia and Alpha chassis and control are on roughly equal footing.
As for the interior, the Camaro's interior isn't "cheap"...it's just the kind of interior you get with a $26-30k car. Trust me there is much worse. And that is just material wise, I think the interior *design* in the Camaro looks great.
I also think the exterior design for the 16-18 Camaro looked very good, the SS 1LE in particular.

[Boost Creep]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

1SS starts at almost 38k usd. you must have gotten it on a great sale. add the 1LE that's another 7k on top of that. must be nice!

That's msrp.
I've seen 1SS's listed for $32,000 many times, for $38,000 you can get a 1LE without PDR easily, then again the warm weather is here and the prices are not as good as they have been for the last 3-4 months.
My 1SS 1LE with PDR and glowtie was listed at $39,000.

[PoorMansCamaro]

Originally Posted by Boost Creep

That's msrp.
I've seen 1SS's listed for $32,000 many times, for $38,000 you can get a 1LE without PDR easily, then again the warm weather is here and the prices are not as good as they have been for the last 3-4 months.
My 1SS 1LE with PDR and glowtie was listed at $39,000.

Still, 35k 1LE and PDR, great deal!

[T_B]

whats with all this Giulia talk? They are two completely different cars, why are they even getting compared here? Oh and the front end on that car is hideous, worse than this refresh. I don't see anyone who is in the market for a Camaro cross-shopping for a Guilia.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by PoorMansCamaro

Still, 35k 1LE and PDR, great deal!

Yes it was right at the very end of 2017 manufacturing
cycle, but tons of folks here got their 1LE s for under $40. Mine was actually closer to 36.5usd plus tax of course - now that i have double checked prevailing fx rate. Still a very nice deal and an incredible value.

[TrackClub]

Originally Posted by indyz

That red car with black jaw look is really looking good. Drool.....insurance going to be higher though lol

Best color yet imo. Glad we got to see those pix. Thx again to the poster!