[Doc]

GM has to decide what they want the Camaro to be. Right now they've basically created a 4 seater Corvette with the performance to justify the price. That's great if that's what you're looking for. But if that's where they want the Camaro to be, they should start expecting the same lower sales numbers each month. May is usually strong for sales because people have received their tax refunds, so those May numbers for the Camaro are a shock to say the least, if you're thinking of Camaro sales of the past.

There are probably many factors involved in those sales numbers, but price is certainly one of them. GM probably thought they were doing their fanbase a favor by building in the kind of performance they saw them adding as mods to their 5th gen cars. And to some extent they did and more; they've done things that we simply couldn't do as aftermarket mods. Which is great if you're one of the affluent enthusiasts like those we have here on the forum. They saw us spending that much and more on aftermarket mods and reasoned we'd like all that and more with a full warranty, which is a great idea. The downside of it is what it does to the perception of affordability when you front-load the costs like that.

In addition to the higher monthly car payment, the higher sales price also causes the insurance costs to go up so you pay more for insurance each month. Let's say that you've picked out a new V6 Camaro that winds up at $38k. Let's say sales tax is 7% and you put down $2k. Your monthly payment on a 60 month loan at 3% interest is about $703, and that does NOT include insurance. With insurance your payment is going to be around $800 a month.

Now let's look at a 5th gen with comparable V6 and a price of $27k; all other amounts the same. Monthly payment is $492; with insurance your payment is maybe around $560. What effect does it have on a customer who is looking at $800 a month compared to $560 a month? At $800 a month the impulse buy is gone; no more impulse buyers. As any salesman will tell you, the longer a customer takes to think about it, the less likely they are to buy. I think that's now showing in the sales numbers.

We discussed this in pretty good detail in this thread back in October of last year:

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420754

The sales numbers are now reflecting the concerns that the Camaro has now moved up to the Corvette market in both performance and perception of price, with an additional price increase due shortly. If that's what GM wants to do with it, well that's fine for those who can and want to buy one. The Camaro is now sliding up out of the 80% area of the market into the 20% area which is the one with the most money, but they're also a lot more selective on what they choose to spend it on. That segment of the market wants their purchase to show image and status as much as anything else. Camaro has a blue collar image. So does the Mustang for that matter. GM has to start associating the Camaro with a status image if they want to move it into that market demographic.

That's fine and all, but as I've been stating for some time, I think they're crazy for abandoning the 80% of the market that got the Camaro where it is in the first place. IF they want to have a healthy future, GM needs to come up with a younger brother to the Camaro; a revived pony car if you will, that a buyer can get out the door with a price in the low 20's. I'm guessing somewhere between $22k-$25k is the sweet spot. If you have to eliminate some of the uber engineering and high performance, that's fine; the 80% doesn't use it anyways. They do however want to drive around in something that looks good and gets attention. You're aiming at the selfie generation; looks are everything. Make it look freaking great. If it doesn't have leather or expensive luxury items that won't be an issue as long as it looks 'hot'. Let them bling and mod it up afterwards. The big selling point will be looks and affordability.

If you have a hot looking pony car that sells for say $23k, with all the numbers the same as the above examples except for a 72 month loan, your monthly payment is about $367. At that price point you'll capture the impulse buyers and be right in the ballpark for the 80% market demographic.

Question is, can GM do it? Will they do it? Do they want to do it? True they won't make as much per car as a $40k Camaro, but what they gain will be sales volume, market buzz, model/brand visibility, and a new generation of excited buyers who will be more likely to upgrade to a higher priced Camaro later on because they're already a GM customer.

They already have brand recognition with the Camaro name if they were to use that and make a younger brother version. If they don't want to do that, then come up with a new name that's NOT one they already have so it doesn't have to overcome previous perception bias.

I know many 'in the know' say it can't be done, but if Mazda can build and sell a Mazda 6 Sport for $22k, which is much fancier than what I'm proposing, then GM should be able to reinvent the pony car with less fancy features, but hit it out of the park with styling. I want GM to not only survive, but be an exciting brand. I'm certain they want that too...they just have to be willing to give it a go.

[Posaune]

Originally Posted by merlin803

And how do those those production related changes show that they are disappointed in the sales numbers or that they are much lower then they planned?

Why ramp up production if the sales are so bad, so far lower than they anticipated that they can't sell what they already made?

Look, all I am saying is that they have given no indication that the 6th Gen Camaro is a failure because the sales are down and they HAVE said that they made a business decision to move the Camaro pricing up for better profit per sale and lower the amount of low profit fleet sales.

What else can we go by? We are not a part of those decisions or plans. Who knows, maybe in a few months it will come out that they are disappointed in the sales but as of today there is no indication of that.

You ramp up production in anticipation of greater sales. You make quarterly and year production projections based on estimated sales volume.

Remember back to the release of the ATS and CTS. GM over produced expecting sales to be much higher than they panned out to be. Production was rolled back and LGR was reduced to one shift. GM added two shifts for Camaro, that wouldn't happen if they expected Camaro to sell at Challenger levels. It isn't hard to figure out they expected 5th Gen or Mustang levels.

If you don't think people at the Ren Center aren't answering questions the last few days they never expected to have to answer a year ago, I don't know what to tell you.

If you think GM doesn't want the Camaro to outsell the Mustang, you are mistaken.

[Number 3]

Originally Posted by AdvanSuper

With nothing in it. I'm not justifying the price of a 2LT, but go and configure a 428 and let me know how much of a 10% difference it is after that.

I'll save you the time... 54k with similar options.

You are kind off missing my point. I have priced a 4 Series. I almost bought one and got my SS instead. I know sedan v. Coupe but it was $60,000. But you can get one for much less.

Originally Posted by SuperSound

BMW warranty is better in some respects, but realistically is worse. There is no separate power train/bumper to bumper coverage. 4 years vs 5 years in power train and 20k fewer miles for the BMW. Bumper to bumper is better with 4 vs 3 years and 14k miles more. But realistically warranties aren't a big point when the vast majority of their sales are 2 or 3 year leases, which are under warranty with almost every manufacture. Now offering lease rates like BMW might would help, but you are right about the "luxury brand" experience being a factor.

if you've never had a luxury car service experience you are missing out. A loaner for an oil change? Even Cadillac does that now. Come pick up your car from work for an oil change? My Audi dealer did that.

Originally Posted by SpeedIsLife

The come with a BMW badge, which carries far more status (to the people who value that sort of thing) than any bowtie.

Originally Posted by AdvanSuper

Exactly... Oh look I can have a BMW for only "10%" more, no you can't ...

The average uninformed consumer is the worst, but probably a godsend to the salesman lol.

Actually you can. They even offer incentives, lol. You are comparing different cars in your comparison. My out are adding all the performance goodies that most sporty coupe buyers really don't know or care about. A 4 Series is farrrrrrr from a 1LT.

Originally Posted by Doc

GM has to decide what they want the Camaro to be. Right now they've basically created a 4 seater Corvette with the performance to justify the price. That's great if that's what you're looking for. But if that's where they want the Camaro to be, they should start expecting the same lower sales numbers each month. May is usually strong for sales because people have received their tax refunds, so those May numbers for the Camaro are a shock to say the least, if you're thinking of Camaro sales of the past.

There are probably many factors involved in those sales numbers, but price is certainly one of them. GM probably thought they were doing their fanbase a favor by building in the kind of performance they saw them adding as mods to their 5th gen cars. And to some extent they did and more; they've done things that we simply couldn't do as aftermarket mods. Which is great if you're one of the affluent enthusiasts like those we have here on the forum. They saw us spending that much and more on aftermarket mods and reasoned we'd like all that and more with a full warranty, which is a great idea. The downside of it is what it does to the perception of affordability when you front-load the costs like that.

In addition to the higher monthly car payment, the higher sales price also causes the insurance costs to go up so you pay more for insurance each month. Let's say that you've picked out a new V6 Camaro that winds up at $38k. Let's say sales tax is 7% and you put down $2k. Your monthly payment on a 60 month loan at 3% interest is about $703, and that does NOT include insurance. With insurance your payment is going to be around $800 a month.

Now let's look at a 5th gen with comparable V6 and a price of $27k; all other amounts the same. Monthly payment is $492; with insurance your payment is maybe around $560. What effect does it have on a customer who is looking at $800 a month compared to $560 a month? At $800 a month the impulse buy is gone; no more impulse buyers. As any salesman will tell you, the longer a customer takes to think about it, the less likely they are to buy. I think that's now showing in the sales numbers.

We discussed this in pretty good detail in this thread back in October of last year:

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=420754

The sales numbers are now reflecting the concerns that the Camaro has now moved up to the Corvette market in both performance and perception of price, with an additional price increase due shortly. If that's what GM wants to do with it, well that's fine for those who can and want to buy one. The Camaro is now sliding up out of the 80% area of the market into the 20% area which is the one with the most money, but they're also a lot more selective on what they choose to spend it on. That segment of the market wants their purchase to show image and status as much as anything else. Camaro has a blue collar image. So does the Mustang for that matter. GM has to start associating the Camaro with a status image if they want to move it into that market demographic.

That's fine and all, but as I've been stating for some time, I think they're crazy for abandoning the 80% of the market that got the Camaro where it is in the first place. IF they want to have a healthy future, GM needs to come up with a younger brother to the Camaro; a revived pony car if you will, that a buyer can get out the door with a price in the low 20's. I'm guessing somewhere between $22k-$25k is the sweet spot. If you have to eliminate some of the uber engineering and high performance, that's fine; the 80% doesn't use it anyways. They do however want to drive around in something that looks good and gets attention. You're aiming at the selfie generation; looks are everything. Make it look freaking great. If it doesn't have leather or expensive luxury items that won't be an issue as long as it looks 'hot'. Let them bling and mod it up afterwards. The big selling point will be looks and affordability.

If you have a hot looking pony car that sells for say $23k, with all the numbers the same as the above examples except for a 72 month loan, your monthly payment is about $367. At that price point you'll capture the impulse buyers and be right in the ballpark for the 80% market demographic.

Question is, can GM do it? Will they do it? Do they want to do it? True they won't make as much per car as a $40k Camaro, but what they gain will be sales volume, market buzz, model/brand visibility, and a new generation of excited buyers who will be more likely to upgrade to a higher priced Camaro later on because they're already a GM customer.

They already have brand recognition with the Camaro name if they were to use that and make a younger brother version. If they don't want to do that, then come up with a new name that's NOT one they already have so it doesn't have to overcome previous perception bias.

I know many 'in the know' say it can't be done, but if Mazda can build and sell a Mazda 6 Sport for $22k, which is much fancier than what I'm proposing, then GM should be able to reinvent the pony car with less fancy features, but hit it out of the park with styling. I want GM to not only survive, but be an exciting brand. I'm certain they want that too...they just have to be willing to give it a go.

I've changed my mind Doc. GM needs your cheaper alternative.

[AZCamaroFan]

well here we go again. i hate to even bother with this. looking at the challenger i'm surprised their sales keep going up. they must be pushing fleet sales and discounts. i went and looked at their prices. A shade under 27K for the V6 ! Yeah the RT is 31k, but that's 375hp in a 4,000 pound car. It can't be any faster than a Camaro V6. Sure i know there are people out there if you gave them the choice between a V8 and V6 with 50 more HP they'd take the V8. Look at the 'scat pack'. It's 38 K! This for a car running on a dozen year old platform. I don't even compare that car to the Camaro and Mustang really. It's not like we havn't seen this before. Ford sold Fox mustangs for 25 years built on a 70s sedan platform , with every update advertising it as 'the all new mustang"
And as far as the Camaro not looking that much different. The mustang has simply evolved since 2005. People were saying a year and a half ago the new one didn't look much different. The Challenger ?! it's in it's 9th year with only a very minor styling update.
The 6thgen is just about as good as it can get and everything a Camaro should be , to me. i don't see what they can do other than be careful and hold the line on pricing the next couple of years.
oh and maybe run some commercials.

[AdvanSuper]

Originally Posted by Number 3

You are kind off missing my point. I have priced a 4 Series. I almost bought one and got my SS instead. I know sedan v. Coupe but it was $60,000. But you can get one for much less.

You simply can't get a similarly optioned 4 Series as the 38k 2LT you mention at only 10% more. Your math is shot you would need to get 30-35% off of the 4 series when adding the same options as the 2LT to be only 10% more.

Actually you can. They even offer incentives, lol. You are comparing different cars in your comparison. My out are adding all the performance goodies that most sporty coupe buyers really don't know or care about. A 4 Series is farrrrrrr from a 1LT.

So apparently Chevy has no incentives and you can't negotiate according to that.... Good argument.

I did add the sport options I basically loaded up the 2LT aside from the brakes then added all similar options to the 4 series.

[Doc]

Originally Posted by Number 3

...
I've changed my mind Doc. GM needs your cheaper alternative.

Oh wow! I thought we were having an earthquake but the unimaginable had happened... I changed Number 3's mind! Now I not only believe in miracles, but I feel younger and more alive!!!

Well since I'm assuming you still have influence with GM management, get them to read and consider the discussions we've had. They can start with a 3d computer model if they just want to gauge interest since the main feature of this car would be the looks. What's under the skin will basically be from the parts bin so there's no need to spend a lot of R&D money there. Make it look like something somebody wants to be seen standing in front of when they take their selfie. It's all about the looks; that's what will get their attention, that's what will get them into the showrooms, and that's what will make it sell. You'll know you've hit it out of the park when you have people in the showroom taking selfies with it.

[Raven87]

A lot of people get caught up in the 'The 6th Gen is faster than the Mustang or Challenger' or lighter, or nicer, etc arguments. And they are true.

But how many buyers - NOT enthusiasts - give two shakes about if the SS can blow the GT or Scat Pack into the weeds? Or if it can pull a big G number on the pad? Or, that it has more HP, more gears in the auto, etc?

Not many. Because IF performance or features caused people to buy cars, they would not be selling Mustangs and Challengers and only the Camaro would sell. The Camaro wins those battles hands down.

But that is not what is happening at all. And this is just months after the new 6th Gen launch.

I honestly think the number one factor isn't even the price anymore - it is the styling. Potential buyers - not us of course - look at the Camaro and go, 'Meh...' vs the Mustang and even the Challenger to a degree.

If the new Camaro had that 'Gotta have it!' look to it, it would not matter about price or features - it would fly off the lots and dealers would be charging MSRP or more. We've seen that happen - but not with the Camaro for a very long time.

It's the styling more than anything. It has to be.

[AZCamaroFan]

it's not.

[SpookShow'84]

Originally Posted by Raven87

Potential buyers - not us of course - look at the Camaro and go, 'Meh...' vs the Mustang and even the Challenger to a degree.

True. 100%.

When they did the reveal and we got to see it for the first time, I felt disappointed. It looks like a small step back in styling vs. the gen5. It's tied for 2nd as far as looks go.

[SuperSound]

Originally Posted by Raven87

A lot of people get caught up in the 'The 6th Gen is faster than the Mustang or Challenger' or lighter, or nicer, etc arguments. And they are true.

But how many buyers - NOT enthusiasts - give two shakes about if the SS can blow the GT or Scat Pack into the weeds? Or if it can pull a big G number on the pad? Or, that it has more HP, more gears in the auto, etc?

Not many. Because IF performance or features caused people to buy cars, they would not be selling Mustangs and Challengers and only the Camaro would sell. The Camaro wins those battles hands down.

But that is not what is happening at all. And this is just months after the new 6th Gen launch.

I honestly think the number one factor isn't even the price anymore - it is the styling. Potential buyers - not us of course - look at the Camaro and go, 'Meh...' vs the Mustang and even the Challenger to a degree.

If the new Camaro had that 'Gotta have it!' look to it, it would not matter about price or features - it would fly off the lots and dealers would be charging MSRP or more. We've seen that happen - but not with the Camaro for a very long time.

It's the styling more than anything. It has to be.

Agreed on performance not really meaning anything for volume sales. But at the same time selling volume is what turned the Mustang into a turd during the 4th gen years and for some time after. We need all 3 to keep going and even more so than the GM and the Camaro at this point, FCA is running Dodge into ground.

The Challenger is truly the niche car, it appeals to those looking for a big traditional muscle car. So in truth if the Camaro was not aggressive enough in styling it's numbers will stay right with the Challenger, showing both cars appeal to a select group of buyers but for very different reasons. Meanwhile the Mustang will appeal to a wider audience but risk becoming like the 3 series in it's segment. A sales king, but lacking being true to it's roots. I'll admit that's a stretch, but I'm sure someone said the same thing before the F30 came out.

Course all of this could be pointless if CAFE, safety, and autonomous cars relate all 3 to small niche cars. Enjoy the golden age while it lasts....have a feeling it won't make it to the next decade.

[SpookShow'84]

Evidence the 2SS price is too high, from another thread and forum member. For the exact reason I mentioned yesterday in #114.

Originally Posted by Hockeypucks

I've been surprised how many times I've heard "I'm not usually a fan of yellow but yours has me thinking otherwise" ha. Very cool compliment. For $46k with tax and shipped to my door from Texas I just couldn't justify buying a new SS even though I like them.

http://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=454846

[SpeedIsLife]

Originally Posted by AZCamaroFan

well here we go again. i hate to even bother with this. looking at the challenger i'm surprised their sales keep going up. they must be pushing fleet sales and discounts. i went and looked at their prices. A shade under 27K for the V6 ! Yeah the RT is 31k, but that's 375hp in a 4,000 pound car. It can't be any faster than a Camaro V6. Sure i know there are people out there if you gave them the choice between a V8 and V6 with 50 more HP they'd take the V8. Look at the 'scat pack'. It's 38 K! This for a car running on a dozen year old platform. I don't even compare that car to the Camaro and Mustang really. It's not like we havn't seen this before. Ford sold Fox mustangs for 25 years built on a 70s sedan platform , with every update advertising it as 'the all new mustang"
And as far as the Camaro not looking that much different. The mustang has simply evolved since 2005. People were saying a year and a half ago the new one didn't look much different. The Challenger ?! it's in it's 9th year with only a very minor styling update.
The 6thgen is just about as good as it can get and everything a Camaro should be , to me. i don't see what they can do other than be careful and hold the line on pricing the next couple of years.
oh and maybe run some commercials.

This was a brutal post to follow..

5.7 Challengers move much faster than their weight and HP number would indicate, mostly due to the 410 ft lb's of torque that hit very low in the 5.7..thanks truck motor! Combine that with an aggressive first two gears (in the A5 and 8) and you get a car that can fairly reliably knock down mid-13's on street tires. Low 13's aren't all that uncommon in good air and high 12's on DR's or slicks if the driver knows how to take advantage of the 5.7's strengths.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by Enator

May 2016 Delivery (sales) Stats:

Camaro May 2016 Deliveries (actual sales): 5,827 -40% (Pr Ye)

Compared to Competition:

Mustang May 2016 Delivery (sales):10,327 24% (Pr Ye)
Challenger May 2016 Delivery (sales):6,677 10% (Pr Ye)

In the last chart. Keep up this slippery slope at this rate the camaro will be leaving skid marks on the ground.

[Marty McFlew]

Originally Posted by Blueclyde

I completely agree with you.

The bottom line is that its really not a car problem. Its a bad management problem from the very Top down. For some reason they just don't seem to have a clue as to what it takes to move these cars. No ads, no price adjustments so there they just sit on dealer lots gathering filth. Its pathetic that a car company can't move a product like the Camaro. Its like losing a war yet they continue to do the same thing over and over again with no change in strategy. Just tells me that there still must be so much beaurocracy that they can't change on a dime to get things done. I would say its time for another major shakeup. GM stock prices also down from last month.