[gtfoxy]

Originally Posted by 95 imp

This is why I'm keeping my 05 DMax. Last year before they went to pee injectors and filters.

I don’t blame you.

Our diesels are work trucks. Bought with the sole benefit of factory warranty. While our 550 has been perfect (knock on wood) the 650 has been a constant PITA. It has been at the dealer for over 2 months waiting on a new turbocharger. Once that is in & installed they can move to the torque converter issue (known problem I might add that is now the 3rd time I’ve had to bring it in) that creates a shudder much worse than the A8 problems. To think you spend almost $80K on a truck & it has issues within 10K miles. Junk.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

None of us are victims here. These changes have been in the works for a long time. In fact, I'd wager that us here in the US are actually behind what other countries have already been doing for a while now. It was only a matter of time before the government started cracking down on tuners and shops and manufacturers. They all know good and well that all these people ordering "off-road" pipes for brand new Mustangs and Camaros...they know good and well all these brand new cars are not "off-road" vehicles. Heck, they come rolling into the shop with license plates, registration, and insurance...the shops even road test these vehicle. Now how you gonna tell me that you put "off-road pipes on a registered and insured vehicle, then test drove it on a public road, then the owner drove off in the same car, and it is an "off-road" vehicle? LOL!! We all been lying and getting away with it for years and finally they got fed up with it and are tightening up. Stop it right at the source...the manufacturers. Eventually they'll start fining the hell out of violators. Like, if you get pulled over and they check under your car and find the cats missing and no CEL then you'll be getting a nice fine and your car impounded. I bet you that is where we're headed sooner or later.

For now at least they're allowing HF cats. And you can still get your car tuned as long as they're not tuning to defeat the emission control systems from what I gather. Like, if you remove the cats and they tune it out, then that will be illegal I guess. So no big deal really. So what, you lose about 20-50 HP. Instead of 870 RWHP you're setup might be "only" 830 RWHP. You'll live.

I get what you’re saying, but educate yourself a tad before making statements regarding cats & HP. The limits aren’t 40HP, it’s a “here’s the limit, beyond that is a quotient of exponential limit.” sorta thing.

I’m not saying I don’t think cats are needed, given current engine dynamics, because they are, in terms of noxious gaseous output.

Here’s the thing though, if direct fuel injection was the holy grail it has been touted as, why are they needed? The fact is better emissions can actually be met by an existing in-tract emulsification system that beats DFI & doesn’t even need cats.

I’ve read many papers that revolve around injection timing & “stratification” as if it’s some magic voodoo when the reality is it’s a bunch of engineer lingidy BS.

I’m not tipping my hat as of yet, but let’s just say there may be something in the works that will put current exhaust gas mix ratios on their ear.

As a reality check, it’s already been done. & the guy that did it taught me.

[CHASLT1]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Regarding NA V8 vs. turbo V6 efficiency, while the latter does better on standardized tests, nobody who owns a performance car drives like a grandma, and we all know what happens to the fuel economy of any turbocharged car when you peg them.

90% of the Vette drivers i see drive like snails.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

None of us are victims here. These changes have been in the works for a long time. In fact, I'd wager that us here in the US are actually behind what other countries have already been doing for a while now. It was only a matter of time before the government started cracking down on tuners and shops and manufacturers. They all know good and well that all these people ordering "off-road" pipes for brand new Mustangs and Camaros...they know good and well all these brand new cars are not "off-road" vehicles. Heck, they come rolling into the shop with license plates, registration, and insurance...the shops even road test these vehicle. Now how you gonna tell me that you put "off-road pipes on a registered and insured vehicle, then test drove it on a public road, then the owner drove off in the same car, and it is an "off-road" vehicle? LOL!! We all been lying and getting away with it for years and finally they got fed up with it and are tightening up. Stop it right at the source...the manufacturers. Eventually they'll start fining the hell out of violators. Like, if you get pulled over and they check under your car and find the cats missing and no CEL then you'll be getting a nice fine and your car impounded. I bet you that is where we're headed sooner or later.

For now at least they're allowing HF cats. And you can still get your car tuned as long as they're not tuning to defeat the emission control systems from what I gather. Like, if you remove the cats and they tune it out, then that will be illegal I guess. So no big deal really. So what, you lose about 20-50 HP. Instead of 870 RWHP you're setup might be "only" 830 RWHP. You'll live.

From what I have been reading Blaq, not exactly. I could be wrong, but the way I read it/heard it/ talked with fellow gear heads about it, you would not be able to get your car tuned anymore. The devices that create the tunes and allow you load the tunes (IE handheld tuners, SCT/Diablo/Ngauge) are lumped into what the EPA calls an emission defeat device. Which is a major problem for the aftermarket as almost every mod on a new car requires a tune.

Also even though high flow cats are legal and can be installed, it is also technically against the law the remove any functioning emissions equipment.

[That1guy_tim]

Can't believe no one posted this in this thread.... If it was and I missed it I'm sorry

https://www.sema.org/epa-news

Sema link to the RPM ACT.. Sign it to save our hobby!! takes 45 seconds guys/gals

[RealG]

Good ! ban race cars, gas, guns, free speech, free elections etc... People get what they vote for. Everybody hated the orange man tweets. now deal with the consequences.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by gtfoxy

I get what you’re saying, but educate yourself a tad before making statements regarding cats & HP. The limits aren’t 40HP, it’s a “here’s the limit, beyond that is a quotient of exponential limit.” sorta thing.

I’m not saying I don’t think cats are needed, given current engine dynamics, because they are, in terms of noxious gaseous output.

Here’s the thing though, if direct fuel injection was the holy grail it has been touted as, why are they needed? The fact is better emissions can actually be met by an existing in-tract emulsification system that beats DFI & doesn’t even need cats.

I’ve read many papers that revolve around injection timing & “stratification” as if it’s some magic voodoo when the reality is it’s a bunch of engineer lingidy BS.

I’m not tipping my hat as of yet, but let’s just say there may be something in the works that will put current exhaust gas mix ratios on their ear.

As a reality check, it’s already been done. & the guy that did it taught me.

Here's all the education needed on the subject...no cats = more power/HF cats = less power/OEM cats = even less power. There. I educated myself.

Nobody needs an advanced degree to know the effing obvious which is that non catted systems make more power easier. Heck, that is why the "off-road" systems are available in the first place which ultimately leads to why we're discussing all this anyway. And actually, a LOT of times it is a significant amount of HP you're leaving on the table both with OEM and HF cats vs a non-catted system. So I'm not WTF kinda education you think I need from a statement I made about catted systems having less HP.

Technology will always allow people to make vehicles faster. Even if initially the are slower. Back in the carb'd days people all but swore that fuel injection would ruin performance. And initially there was a bit of a slump. But then we got to the point where fuel injected cars make more power, are more fuel efficient, offer better driveability, are more reliable, are better for the environment, and are much faster than what was available in the old days. So we will see that again in the future. That much is obvious.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by shaffe

From what I have been reading Blaq, not exactly. I could be wrong, but the way I read it/heard it/ talked with fellow gear heads about it, you would not be able to get your car tuned anymore. The devices that create the tunes and allow you load the tunes (IE handheld tuners, SCT/Diablo/Ngauge) are lumped into what the EPA calls an emission defeat device. Which is a major problem for the aftermarket as almost every mod on a new car requires a tune.

Also even though high flow cats are legal and can be installed, it is also technically against the law the remove any functioning emissions equipment.

Not exactly true. The law was that you cannot remove or alter the location of manufacturer installed emission's equipment on a vehicle that either is less than a certain amount of time old (I believe it was 6 years) or had less than a certain amount of miles (I believe it was 60K miles) so if you had a 2018 SS with 61K miles then you cannot alter the OEM cats. Likewise if you had a 2014 SS with 32K miles then you could not alter them. But if you had a 2014 SS with 65K miles then you could. Of course different states have different rules on this but those were the federal laws that I remember reading a few years ago. I remember bringing this up back on the Camaro5 pages back before the Camaro6 days.

My tuner told me that my vehicle can still be tuned. Again, I think they were looking more towards diesel stuff (for now) and other specific items. As of right now I do believe there are tuners still tuning. But it is coming.

Originally Posted by RealG

Good ! ban race cars, gas, guns, free speech, free elections etc... People get what they vote for. Everybody hated the orange man tweets. now deal with the consequences.

You mad bro?

For the record, this is a small segment of the population. MOST people, the vast overwhelming majority of people, in our country and around the world will be more than happy to hear about this. And they don't give 2 F's that we're gonna have cars with less power. These are people who commute and are stuck in traffic and are basically used to fuel efficient cars. It is a welcome change. Current or previous administration has nothing to do with these changes. They were in the works for a long time. So don't be mad. It was gonna happen sooner or later.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Not exactly true. The law was that you cannot remove or alter the location of manufacturer installed emission's equipment on a vehicle that either is less than a certain amount of time old (I believe it was 6 years) or had less than a certain amount of miles (I believe it was 60K miles) so if you had a 2018 SS with 61K miles then you cannot alter the OEM cats. Likewise if you had a 2014 SS with 32K miles then you could not alter them. But if you had a 2014 SS with 65K miles then you could. Of course different states have different rules on this but those were the federal laws that I remember reading a few years ago. I remember bringing this up back on the Camaro5 pages back before the Camaro6 days.

My tuner told me that my vehicle can still be tuned. Again, I think they were looking more towards diesel stuff (for now) and other specific items. As of right now I do believe there are tuners still tuning. But it is coming.


You mad bro?

For the record, this is a small segment of the population. MOST people, the vast overwhelming majority of people, in our country and around the world will be more than happy to hear about this. And they don't give 2 F's that we're gonna have cars with less power. These are people who commute and are stuck in traffic and are basically used to fuel efficient cars. It is a welcome change. Current or previous administration has nothing to do with these changes. They were in the works for a long time. So don't be mad. It was gonna happen sooner or later.

Got ya.

I think where the main problem or at least the way I read it have heard it is that because there is no grey area with the guidelines the EPA is working with. So where I am getting hung up is they consider a hand held tuner a defeat device since it technically can defeat emissions equipment. Obviously they are still selling them, they are still legal etc etc but it seems now they are starting to crack down on the people writing the tunes and would like to make them a thing of the past.

And yes 100% from everything I have seen its mostly the diesel stuff they are looking for but again they see no grey area.

Also 100% this has been coming for many years, I think SCT got fined back in 2017 or 2018 so this has been set in motion many years ago.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by CHASLT1

90% of the Vette drivers i see drive like snails.

Well, considering the age of the average Vette owner, I am not too surprised.

And funnily, they are also the people who will defend the V8 to death.

I just don't think I would personally mix with a turbo engine as well myself. There is some truth to the "no replacement for displacement" phrase.

[WhiteMale]

You had to know that a company helping you to pull even just the 2d cats wasn't going to last very long. It was begging the EPA to slap their wieners. I was all for it but shoving it in EPA's face was always going to be short lived.

[DaveC113]

Originally Posted by RealG

Good ! ban race cars, gas, guns, free speech, free elections etc... People get what they vote for. Everybody hated the orange man tweets. now deal with the consequences.

It's almost like the issues of today are too complex for a black and white 2-party system...

Neither candidate the last several elections was a good choice and we haven't had a reasonable choice in decades. Meanwhile, neither party has effectively addressed any major issue of any concern to the average American, in fact it's just gotten worse. Both sides blame each other while the ultra-rich just laugh.

[willzilla]

Just charge us a $200 carbon tax and give us an emissions exempt tax stamp and call it a day

[kropscamaro16]

this world is going to shit and this state is going to shit only thing i have gotten to enjoy in the last year is race cars and steak for dinner every night...

[ThePeoplesCamaro]

Is it wrong of me to be slightly excited that the market value of my kooks LTs and off road xpipe just went up lol