[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by roostere4

The issue isn't the range of the fobs transmitting or if they are constantly transmitting. The issue is that they will respond when they receive a signal from the vehicle. Relay attacks and why faraday bags/boxes are important are that thieves are able to using various techniques extend the range at which those signals between the car and the keyfob operate.

One way this is done is to have antennas near both the vehicle and the keyfob and another device connected to these antennas to that then retransmit the signals over a much stronger frequency, most likely adhoc wifi, but could really be any radio frequency. Now the range is not limited to the power/frequency of the original communication between the keyfob and car but this new carrier frequency. Basically the key/car signals are being encapsulated in another stronger signal for transmission. My crude outline tries to show this below.

key signal -> device -> wfifi signal {key signal} -> device -> keysignal -> car

So a pair of thieves can capture and retransmit signals up to the distance of the range of the device/frequency they are using for retransmission which could be hundreds of feet or more.
The antennas they are using for capture don't even need to be big, only large enough to effectively capture the signal from the key/car. That's why in the videos you seen on key relay attacks the unit by the car is small(very easy to capture that signal) and why the thief near the house has a larger wire loop antenna, this is the harder signal to capture.

If implemented in a man portable version for stealing vehicles out and about say at a mall. The capture antenna for the key fob can be much smaller, and fit discretely in a small backpack. They don't have to try and catch a weak far away signal. They can walk right behind you, (about the distance that a keyfob needs to be in order to passive unlock the car) and do do the same and require a smaller antenna that can easily be concealed. While their buddy is out at your car waiting to unlock, start it and drive away.

Roostere4, thanks for the info. Hella interesting, and damn. I didn't even know that when I was putting up the "20 to 30" feet deal. Jesus. These shitbags have gone high tech for sure beyond my wildest imagination. Maybe my lowly SS is immune, and it's just the ZL1s that are getting this level of bullshit and clipped.

Glad my car is garaged. If I had a Camaro in 2024 parked outside, even an SS, I'd be happy every day I woke up and saw it still there.

It's getting crazy. And it will just get worse now that our Camaros are going down in history and being overtaken by EVs as far as thefts. It sucks.

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

Here is the bigger problem, a $400 OBD-II 2 way scanner from Amazon lets them delete all of your key Fobs and program whatever Key Fobs they want in about 30 seconds... Search these forums for issues, there are a LOT of things you can do to help thwart the attack, but either way you will likely end up with a broken drivers window...

Holy shit! LOL. One issue I thought was resolved over here, and there was another one out there I was clueless about. But thanks for the info, 2SS Capt. Jesus. I'll check into that next.

Crazy concept. Maybe I just need to set up one of my many handguns on the driver's side a little bit under he dash out of site, that if the brake pedal is pushed the trigger is engaged and shoots them right in the balls. Would definitely be effective.

Crazy times call for creative measures.

Edit: But probably get sued by the thief in our crazy political world nowadays. But if my car was outside, honestly, I'd probably do it. Seriously. lol.

[olrocker]

I’ve said it before - this seems like it’s easier to steal these cars today that it was in the old days when all you needed to steal any car on the planet was a flathead screwdriver, a hammer, and a shim.

[arpad_m]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Holy shit! LOL. One issue I thought was resolved over here, and there was another one out there I was clueless about. But thanks for the info, 2SS Capt. Jesus. I'll check into that next.

Texas1ss, here is another idea to help plug one more hole in our swiss cheese GM security issue: https://www.genosgarage.com/product/...ories-interior (funny how it's sold by a Cummins diesel shop, but whatever ). Not that it solves the problem, but the best you can do is a layered security approach.

I'm all for serious consequences to serious, premeditated crimes, by the way. Not the innocent stupid s**t we all did in our youth, but this modern day, almost industrial level, car jackery as a "business" or smash and grab kind of disregard for other people.

By the way, one neighbor half a block from us, who recently moved here from CA, put up a "protected by f**k around and find out security" sign on his front porch, and I know he means business. He isn't the only one.

[NovaSS4spdFan]

Maybe a stick will slow them down some ?

[Capricio]

Originally Posted by 2SS Capt

Here is the bigger problem, a $400 OBD-II 2 way scanner from Amazon lets them delete all of your key Fobs and program whatever Key Fobs they want in about 30 seconds... Search these forums for issues, there are a LOT of things you can do to help thwart the attack, but either way you will likely end up with a broken drivers window...

Exactly. You guys are obsessing way too much on the "get inside the car" part which is easily overcome by a rock if they are okay with a driving around with busted window. A fob relay attack isn't "cloning", it just gets the door locks open.


Focus on the OBD/CAN or the ignition/fuel aspect of protection if you're serious about keeping your car from walking off, layered with some physical locks, as well.



Note: Finally got a schematic up in the DIY thread for anyone interested.

[jfkheat]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

This cheap pouch works surprisingly well, I can't get into the car or, once inside, start it with the fob in the pouch, no matter how close to the receiver I try to place it: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B092PQQ5J5

You can also get a Faraday box that holds several key fobs if you have more than one car that has the fob.

https://www.amazon.com/Diyife-Farada...1zcF9hdGY&th=1

[knighti2]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Crazy concept. Maybe I just need to set up one of my many handguns on the driver's side a little bit under he dash out of site, that if the brake pedal is pushed the trigger is engaged and shoots them right in the balls. Would definitely be effective.

Would also make it easy to pick out your thief in a line up.
Yes officer the one with the big hole where his balls should be did it.

[LancevanceZLE]

Originally Posted by Texas1ss

Okay. I checked it. The FOB doesn't constantly talk with the button on the door handle you push to unlock the car from a distance. The FOB has to be within a few feet or it won't unlock your vehicle. I figured that was the case.

So you're saying the FOB is constantly transmitting at all times, even from a long range, a signal that crooks can intercept with their devices if the FOB is in your pocket and nothing is pushed whatsoever?

I'm assuming that's what you're trying to get across. If so, what I'm speaking of won't work just locking it manually from inside the vehicle. If it's not transmitting signals just in your pocket without any presses to transmit a signal, it would work.

If the dang thing is transmitting constantly without any unlock press or lock press on the FOB, if you have any suggestions of a good Faraday bag just holler. I'm going to get one. I worked too hard, and enjoy my car too much, to lose it to some dirtbag wanting to joyride.

I do have a manual transmission, which I saw some people get reamed about in other threads for being a deterrent to help their car not get stolen, which I thought was totally moronic (probably automatic transmission owners who took it as an insult for some reason), but a manual does help. That's just a cold, hard fact. Never understood that pissing contest tbh, but I have seen it pop up on these boards quite a few times.

I also have the pedal lock. It can easily be drilled, but I'm going to see about modifying it where a solid block of metal is covering the hole where they can't drill it without removing the metal, that I'll have secured with another lock.

If anybody knows of a good Faraday bag, let me know, or if you know if this thing transmits 24/7 without being used. If so, stupid design by GM IMO, and they deserve the class action lawsuit they're facing.

The keys have rolling codes and can't be relayed easily. All of this theft is happening via a device that plugs into your OBD2 port. Your key fob has nothing to do with it and a faraday pouch doesn't help.

Please read the existing threads on this issue. There are literally thousands of posts explaining this.

[LancevanceZLE]

Originally Posted by roostere4

The issue isn't the range of the fobs transmitting or if they are constantly transmitting. The issue is that they will respond when they receive a signal from the vehicle. Relay attacks and why faraday bags/boxes are important are that thieves are able to using various techniques extend the range at which those signals between the car and the keyfob operate.

One way this is done is to have antennas near both the vehicle and the keyfob and another device connected to these antennas to that then retransmit the signals over a much stronger frequency, most likely adhoc wifi, but could really be any radio frequency. Now the range is not limited to the power/frequency of the original communication between the keyfob and car but this new carrier frequency. Basically the key/car signals are being encapsulated in another stronger signal for transmission. My crude outline tries to show this below.

key signal -> device -> wfifi signal {key signal} -> device -> keysignal -> car

So a pair of thieves can capture and retransmit signals up to the distance of the range of the device/frequency they are using for retransmission which could be hundreds of feet or more.
The antennas they are using for capture don't even need to be big, only large enough to effectively capture the signal from the key/car. That's why in the videos you seen on key relay attacks the unit by the car is small(very easy to capture that signal) and why the thief near the house has a larger wire loop antenna, this is the harder signal to capture.

If implemented in a man portable version for stealing vehicles out and about say at a mall. The capture antenna for the key fob can be much smaller, and fit discretely in a small backpack. They don't have to try and catch a weak far away signal. They can walk right behind you, (about the distance that a keyfob needs to be in order to passive unlock the car) and do do the same and require a smaller antenna that can easily be concealed. While their buddy is out at your car waiting to unlock, start it and drive away.

No, the key fob has nothing to do with this. Stop spreading misinformation. The keys have rolling codes.

These thefts are happening with a locksmith device that can reprogram a key in 30 seconds and can be bought on Amazon for $400. It needs to physically plug into your OBD2 port, which is why thieves will simply smash the window to get to your OBD port.

The only protection is a kill switch and an OBD port blocker or relocation.

Has nobody here read the dozens of existing threads on this issue?

[L2SS455]

See thread: Okay, GM it's time you fixed this! JLR did

First, GM IS held accountable for their software. True , That's why they need to fix it. There is no exceptions, period !

But in this case it meets all relative FMVSS requirements and as someone mentioned GM can’t be held accountable for where you park or the scumbags hunting your car down for a joy ride. IMOP not true.

OBDII - Security Attention for Automotive
Author
Cuong Nguyen January 16, 2023
Associate General Manager HCL Tech
"As connectivity in vehicles is increasing, related parties (e.g., regulators and car makers) need to pay attention to every source of connection, as they could potentially open a multitude of remote attacks on vehicles [1, 2]. Since an OBDII system is necessary for vehicle health, passenger safety and sustainability, it is critical for manufacturers to ensure the security of this system."

This has largely been overlooked. Hence Jaguar Land Rover , KIA have acted responsible to address their OBDII systems. GM has to be called out in a lawsuit, on Onstar and stops sharing driver data with brokers amid backlash data selling.

Eventually, this same issue will be resolved no doubt, perhaps this way( Lawsuit) too.
"I told you".

[Deacon Blues]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Texas1ss, here is another idea to help plug one more hole in our swiss cheese GM security issue: https://www.genosgarage.com/product/...ories-interior (funny how it's sold by a Cummins diesel shop, but whatever ). Not that it solves the problem, but the best you can do is a layered security approach.

I'm all for serious consequences to serious, premeditated crimes, by the way. Not the innocent stupid s**t we all did in our youth, but this modern day, almost industrial level, car jackery as a "business" or smash and grab kind of disregard for other people.

By the way, one neighbor half a block from us, who recently moved here from CA, put up a "protected by f**k around and find out security" sign on his front porch, and I know he means business. He isn't the only one.

For anyone concerned about fitment, I purchased this exact obd lock and it works perfectly. The company is also great, I spoke with them on the phone about a shipping question and they were extremely accommodating.

[SS_Don]

This thread has gone way off topic. If you are interested in security measures there are plenty of other threads that address how to secure your car.

[Texas1ss]

Originally Posted by arpad_m

Texas1ss, here is another idea to help plug one more hole in our swiss cheese GM security issue: https://www.genosgarage.com/product/...ories-interior (funny how it's sold by a Cummins diesel shop, but whatever ). Not that it solves the problem, but the best you can do is a layered security approach.

I'm all for serious consequences to serious, premeditated crimes, by the way. Not the innocent stupid s**t we all did in our youth, but this modern day, almost industrial level, car jackery as a "business" or smash and grab kind of disregard for other people.

By the way, one neighbor half a block from us, who recently moved here from CA, put up a "protected by f**k around and find out security" sign on his front porch, and I know he means business. He isn't the only one.

Thanks, arpad_m. I'll check into that as well. It's crazy the stuff we have to go through nowadays to protect our cars. But I'm learning as my wallet gets thinner.