[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Except nobody can build when the basic electronic components (memory, processor, micro, linear parts etc.) are all obsolete. The design is then useless as the parts will not be available. Again, this is an electronic fact and reality.

I could build a body control module from a 1996 whatever brand today, in theory, schematics and everything available, except 90% of the necessary parts to build it no longer exist. Also, far simpler modules in 1996 than today, and fewer of them in the car back then! Today's electronics far more embedded in every car.
Updated replacement parts would not function in the old design, so now you need to redesign the entire module and system to "recreate it", test it, work out all the design bugs. Not going to happen. You would invest millions to build aftermarket modules and not enough market/demand to support it.

Nope, not going to happen.

This is what I do for a living everyday for multi billion dollar companies, redesign and move on. For old electronics in automotive, it would make zero sense.

Then perhaps they will do the way they have been doing 50 or 60 year old airplanes which is to completely upgrade the electronics with new systems while maintain the original infrastructure, mechanics and hydraulics. Perhaps someone will come out with electronic upgrade kits. Perhaps chip and CPU manufacturing will become very easy to manufacture and better than stock system boards will be made available.

[KingLT1]

If the 6th generation Camaro is the last generation then it will for sure be a classic some day...especially the ZL1.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Abubaca

Well I'm no modern car expert, but working on them isn't what scares me. It's parts availability. ...and potentially worse would be a perceived lack of value because of it. Could you imagine having 25 year 6th gen, in pristine condition, low mileage, and some electronic part goes out that can't be replaced? I don't see why that's not very real possibility!


Now sure....own it, drive it, worry about all this later. I get it. Cars aren't good long term investments. But still....this is something I think about with a modern car.

Assuming someone will program it for you, they are also probably enough 6th Gens in the junkyard for you to just swap it out.

Also, I can't see why electronics would randomly fail on a low mileage car that's driven semi-regularly and stored properly for winter. These things are usually solid-state so vibrations, etc. shouldn't wear them as much as they do to mechanical parts.

Again, it's just tradeoff. The things modern cars are capable of are due to these electronics. That's just how it is.

It's like comparing those brick Nokias to modern smartphones. Yeah, those bricks are indestructible but about the only things you can do is call, text, and maybe play Snakes(ah the nostalgia). Modern smartphones don't really last all that long(planned obsolescence doesn't help) but you can do more with them.

[Nothing like an SS]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Then perhaps they will do the way they have been doing 50 or 60 year old airplanes which is to completely upgrade the electronics with new systems while maintain the original infrastructure, mechanics and hydraulics. Perhaps someone will come out with electronic upgrade kits. Perhaps chip and CPU manufacturing will become very easy to manufacture and better than stock system boards will be made available.

All certainly possible. The issue though is the expense to do all of that and the investment (HUGE investment) which would only happen if there was enough demand. I doubt there will be many thousands of people dying to upgrade/retro fit an old Camaro (6th gen is future OLD, lol) to make it workable again. The research, engineering, testing involved alone would be millions of dollars and that is before they actually have anything to sell.

All possible, but I am more likely to hit the mega lotto jackpot TWICE before that all comes to pass. Odds are very low.

Even lower chance as the world seems to want to move away from gas powered cars, so that will make the demand even lower, if not illegal as some governments are suggesting already.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by MackSteelPrivateEye

Then perhaps they will do the way they have been doing 50 or 60 year old airplanes which is to completely upgrade the electronics with new systems while maintain the original infrastructure, mechanics and hydraulics. Perhaps someone will come out with electronic upgrade kits. Perhaps chip and CPU manufacturing will become very easy to manufacture and better than stock system boards will be made available.

Retrofitting for old cars are certainly possible, but even then, a 69 Camaro chassis is potatoes compared to a 6th Gen Camaro chassis, and there is no retrofitting that.

Still cool idea, though. If money is no object, I would love to retrofit an FD RX-7.

[Nothing like an SS]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Assuming someone will program it for you, they are also probably enough 6th Gens in the junkyard for you to just swap it out.

Also, I can't see why electronics would randomly fail on a low mileage car that's driven semi-regularly and stored properly for winter. These things are usually solid-state so vibrations, etc. shouldn't wear them as much as they do to mechanical parts.

Again, it's just tradeoff. The things modern cars are capable of are due to these electronics. That's just how it is.

It's like comparing those brick Nokias to modern smartphones. Yeah, those bricks are indestructible but about the only things you can do is call, text, and maybe play Snakes(ah the nostalgia). Modern smartphones don't really last all that long(planned obsolescence doesn't help) but you can do more with them.

Electronics are affected by temperature (storage and use), moisture, and the BIG enemy, electro-static discharge, which has brought planes out of the sky and sent satellites out of control.
Long term more than 60% of the "leftover" electronics will fail even without use. Also, EEPROMS, which store data in your car (settings etc.) have a limited amount of read write cycles, so they do actually wear out. This is why modern cell phones fail most often, the eMMC Flash (essentially the SSD in a phone and modern computers) also has limited cycles. They will all fail eventually with no potential replacement as the technology won't exist anymore.

Even in eMMC flash, parts 5 years ago cannot work with current systems and visa versa, it is just how technology moves, always forward leaving everything behind and not compatible.

Don't get me started on the flash controllers which fail or go obsolete even faster.

Seen this thousands of times over the years.
Replacement products/technology is how it is handled, not trying to redesign old tech to work with new. Too many roadblocks and issue to even try that. Electronics sustaining engineering is my area of specialty, I am not spitballing here, this is all real world facts in the entire electronics industry, consumer to aerospace and everything in between.

Re-engineering or updating any of these complex electronic systems in the car are not worth the cost of doing so. You could get to Mars cheaper and easier.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

In the early 70s I was one of the first to publicly predict US Performance cars would be future valuable classics. I said this publicly to my brother so I am on record.
I again am publicly stating that today US performance cars have a good chance of value but not like the first go round simply do to the fact that the current generation hates cars and many also seem to hate America.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by Nothing like an SS

Electronics are affected by temperature (storage and use), moisture, and the BIG enemy, electro-static discharge, which has brought planes out of the sky and sent satellites out of control.
Long term more than 60% of the "leftover" electronics will fail even without use. Also, EEPROMS, which store data in your car (settings etc.) have a limited amount of read write cycles, so they do actually wear out. This is why modern cell phones fail most often, the eMMC Flash (essentially the SSD in a phone and modern computers) also has limited cycles. They will all fail eventually with no potential replacement as the technology won't exist anymore.

Even in eMMC flash, parts 5 years ago cannot work with current systems and visa versa, it is just how technology moves, always forward leaving everything behind and not compatible.

Don't get me started on the flash controllers which fail or go obsolete even faster.

Seen this thousands of times over the years.
Replacement products/technology is how it is handled, not trying to redesign old tech to work with new. Too many roadblocks and issue to even try that. Electronics sustaining engineering is my area of specialty, I am not spitballing here, this is all real world facts in the entire electronics industry, consumer to aerospace and everything in between.

Re-engineering or updating any of these complex electronic systems in the car are not worth the cost of doing so. You could get to Mars cheaper and easier.

I know about the read-write cycle limitations of eMMC flash but at the same time, those are pretty high for normal uses. I have a laptop that I have used daily for 4 years now and the SSD I put in has only been through 20 write cycles. Those things are rated to go thousands of cycles. Realistically, something else will fail on my laptop first before the SSD dies.

For professional/enterprise use, that's a different story, but I don't expect a car's flash storage to see that level of use.

If it's something that needs to be adjusted on the fly like fuel trims, MAF rate, etc., I'd imagine they use RAM chips for those which last quite a long time.

Now I know what your concerns are, temperatures, humidity and such things will be a big pain, but at the same time, a condition a road car(especially a Camaro which most people won't attempt to drive in freezing weather) sees isn't comparable to what a plane sees.

Personally I just wouldn't worry about these things. As some people already pointed out, we could all be in self-driving electric pods by the time something electronic goes horribly wrong on our 6th Gen Camaros.

[Nothing like an SS]

Originally Posted by UnknownJinX

Personally I just wouldn't worry about these things. As some people already pointed out, we could all be in self-driving electric pods by the time something electronic goes horribly wrong on our 6th Gen Camaros.

Now that sums it all up right there! LOL
realistically I will be dead long before anyone finds these classic and collectible, so it won't ultimately matter to me.

My point was the electronics will be the downfall of these being worth anything, or even drive able in the future.

This is all a very interesting post though for sure!

[foshjowler]

I don't see how the electronics make it prohibitively harder to restore a car. We have handheld tuners and aftermarket ECUs that can make the car do basically whatever you want it to. As modern cars get older and need replacement ECUs, I see no reason the market won't develop what's required to get them running again. 90's cars are just getting to the point where people are starting to restore them.

I foresee the current generations of pony/muscle cars being quite collectible in the future. It's only a matter of time before the manual transmission isn't offered in them and the V8 goes to the wayside. At least for mainstream cars. And the last generations of something like that seem to be quite collectible. Think air-cooled Porsches and manual Ferraris.

I think the bigger concern is who will continue to care about the older cars to maintain/restore them as the generations that grew up with them die off. It's already happened with cars before the 60s and is starting to happen with the 60s muscle cars. Look at the markets and the age of cars that are increasing and decreasing. The 80s and 90s "Radwood" era cars are on their way up, and 60s muscle cars peaked some 10-15 years ago.

[gpskinzhut]

Depends on demand. The aftermarket is a fascinating place. I'd imagine you may see something like stand-alone harnesses & controllers to run the car but lose some functionality, probably in MyLink if I had to guess.

[01pewterz28]

Never in our life time will a 5th Gen or 6th Gen be a collectable like a 1st Gen Camaro will ever be.

I would have bet that the 4th Gen GMMG cars would become collectables (rare, numbered, super limited production, 100% fully documented, Parts NOT available to reproduce) yet a $40k GMMG Phase 1 Camaro is fetching $19-$22k, a $75K PH2 ZL-1 is fetching $40k.

5th Gen Z28’s continue to drop in price.

6th Gen’s not going to happen.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by 01pewterz28

Never in our life time will a 5th Gen or 6th Gen be a collectable like a 1st Gen Camaro will ever be.

I would have bet that the 4th Gen GMMG cars would become collectables (rare, numbered, super limited production, 100% fully documented, Parts NOT available to reproduce) yet a $40k GMMG Phase 1 Camaro is fetching $19-$22k, a $75K PH2 ZL-1 is fetching $40k.

5th Gen Z28’s continue to drop in price.

6th Gen’s not going to happen.

I have to agree with this ^

Part of the reason the 1st gen cars and cars from the 50-60 early 70s are so collectible is like another poster mentioned the boomers have money to pay for them and want to relive their glory days. cars back then were literally part of culture and everyday life, you had movies about cars, songs about cars, drive ins, diners etc etc. Cars today are appliances. You also could have had a super rare car made back then just because options were all a la carte. Or if you knew the right people you could get stuff that wasn't offered to the general public. Hell my pops order is 69 442 in a color that wasn't offered on the 442 because the dealer knew what strings to pull.

[Abubaca]

Part of the reason the 1st gen cars and cars from the 50-60 early 70s are so collectible is like another poster mentioned the boomers have money to pay for them and want to relive their glory days. cars back then were literally part of culture and everyday life, you had movies about cars, songs about cars, drive ins, diners etc etc. Cars today are appliances. You also could have had a super rare car made back then just because options were all a la carte. Or if you knew the right people you could get stuff that wasn't offered to the general public. Hell my pops order is 69 442 in a color that wasn't offered on the 442 because the dealer knew what strings to pull.

Agreed.But not many cars can measure up to the 69, yet they're still collectible. 2nd gens have come along, as well as the 3rd gens, and even the 4th gens are starting to go up. Heck, selling my Iroc got me into my SS. The 5th and 6th will follow suit in time. Still, none will measure up to the 69. ...unless of course, maybe the later models will NOT ultimately go up in value, due to an inability to keep them up and running. Thus the conversation.



As always, interesting discussion.