[Abubaca]

The biggest hurdle for long term "classic" status of most modern cars boils down to the electronics.
This is not about having the scan tools. programming tools etc. No, the issue is the electronics themselves have a limited life, most components become completely obsolete withing 10-15 years and cannot ever be replaced.

To keep a car running and viable 20-30 years from now is simply not possible, unless there is a huge investment in aftermarket electronics to re-engineer all the components to repair the many complicated electronics that control every aspect of the car.

This is true for ALL electronics across all industries. I work as an electrical engineer in industrial and military/aerospace electronics for over 35 years, guess what, all electronics become obsolete and there is NO going back. Dead is dead. This is something I deal with every day as our devices are 10-15 year life span and even that is VERY difficult to support. Many parts will not be around more than 10 years, tech moves on, period.
Automotive electronics dictates 15 year life span for components, after that, they will typically be phased out and never manufactured again.

That is where modern cars will become obsolete and non-repairable. Not the mechanical aspect, that is not an issue, mechanical parts can be custom machined/fabricated, electronics cannot not. Take a simple processor or memory chip (hundreds in a typical car), when the silicon die is obsolete, there is no replacement and never will be.

Very few cars will ever stand the test of time due to the electronics, the heavy reliant integration of those electronics and irreplaceable nature of electronics in general.

Unless someone opens a die fab to recreate "old" electronic components, there is no way to repair the car. This will not happen as the cost and reverse engineering required would not be justified by any real demand. Also, any given year, the electronics are changing, so no way to cover all the myriad of configurations that evolve even over a 10 year span. Simply not possible.

Once the electronics in the car are dead, especially if it is 20+ years later, that is that, dead is dead.

That is the reality of modern cars. Electronics are a short life span, no way around that. The heavy integration of electronics guarantees the car cannot survive many decades later, unless it a rare, well preserved specimen, even then it may require electronic repair that will simply just not be possible.

So this is exactly what I've seen in my day to day experience as a consumer with other electronics, as well as what I've heard from another friend of mine who is an electrical engineer. ...and while I personally have no education in the matter, it certainly makes sense, and that's scary from automotive hobbyist point of view.



I do think that part will be around for awhile....many years hopefully, but as time goes on, a car with all these electronics will likely not hold the value of a similar car back in the analog days.

[CamaroRSOnt]

Doesn't matter by the time my Camaro is out of it's 6 yr bumper to bumper warranty I'll be looking to upgrade again anyways. I kept my C7 for 6 yrs as well. A '69 Camaro is a cool car but it's still 1969 technology, drives like a 1969, no comparison. I had a 1978 Z28 bought new , seemed like a wonderful car at the time, a piece of crap compared to my 2020, under powered, poor handling, cheap interior. My older brother had a '67 Mustang -289, very nice car to look at but poorly built, didn't stand up, tranny issues, bad brakes.



Of those buying Camaro's 98% will never think to work on it anyways, something goes wrong it goes back to the dealer. A very small niche of owners actually want to get their hands dirty, probably most of those are found on this forum.


From a valuation viewpoint, rose colored glasses, 69 Camaros are highly valued today because the baby boomers have money. It's a generational thing, this will pass as the next generation moves up in wealth and sets their sights on something different, the car that took their fancy in their youth. I expect whatever that car(s) is it will have a lot more tech in it. I have a 42 yr old neighbour, tells me his 1991 Z28 was his favourite car of all time, yup pure sports car, all of 200 HP, that's kinda embarrassing now a days.

[LT4Greg]

My thinking is go ahead and enjoy driving them now and don’t be concerned about the future and if these cars will retain their values or be around on the roads. In 25 to 30 years from now we don’t know what our country or the world will be like or even if we will be here. Drive and enjoy them now!��

[mrgoodbytes]

My concern except for the electronics of course, are the extended use of aluminum. for example the front sub frame and the strut towers which are glued and riveted in place.

On a lot of old cars you could always patch in a new part of a panel or rebuild parts that are no longer available. As parts are now more advanced this will be much more difficult especially for the average enthusiast wrench monkey

[L8Apex]

They won't be as viable long term as cars without electronics, GM and others will quit making replacement assemblies with time, and for large and expensive electronic parts that will be hard to get around. Aftermarket will probably help for awhile, then people will look to run the cars minus the electronics you can't buy/repair anymore. I personally don't think I'd want it in 20 years due to reliability issues that will come over time with electronics.

[mrgoodbytes]

Where I’m from (Denmark) the Camaro SS is a $135k car. So obviously those buying at that price want it to last as long as possible, haha.

[L8Apex]

Originally Posted by mrgoodbytes

Where I’m from (Denmark) the Camaro SS is a $135k car. So obviously those buying at that price want it to last as long as possible, haha.

No camaro is worth anywhere close to that, I'd probably be driving an M4 instead if I were over there

[Nothing like an SS]

Originally Posted by LT4Greg

My thinking is go ahead and enjoy driving them now and don’t be concerned about the future and if these cars will retain their values or be around on the roads. In 25 to 30 years from now we don’t know what our country or the world will be like or even if we will be here. Drive and enjoy them now!��

Exactly! I am not sure I will be around in 30 years, so there is that! lol

[95 imp]

The mechanical side and the engine management- No problem
Even though the BCM/ECM's are getting harder to crack.

What worries me is what Abubaca is saying... the electronics. Specifically the BCM an how it controls everything now.

How hard of a time are we having trying to put Recaros in a 1SS and get them to work? (heat and cool option).

I am sure the list goes on. You have to add knowledge of CANBUS, etc. (actually be an electronic engineer) to be able to fix/mod these cars now.

[MackSteelPrivateEye]

Originally Posted by Abubaca

What's up guys.....I thought we had a pretty good conversation last week about choosing between a Camaro anda Corvette. Lots of good points for and against, lots of first hand thoughts and opinions, and I thought it was a fun thread discussing something I've thought about a lot. Along those lines I have another question!


The Question:
Are 6th gen Camaros, and really all modern performance cars, too digital, too complicated and too computerized to be a viable, long term classics?



My vested interest?

My 2016 is now 4 years old, a mid model facelift came out in 2019, and the 6th gen as a whole will end in 2023. Do you trade up and stay current or hold on to it and take your chances???


The real wold example:
You could own a 1969 Camaro, today, in 2020, and take it to any Chevrolet Dealership, or mechanic and expect most of them to be able to work on it. Beyond that, most shade tree enthusiasts can work on them, and the skills needed to work on yourself (for the most part) are such that a mechanically inclined person can learn. Not everything, but much of it. As a Camaro fan and owner of almost 30 years, I can do almost everything you could possibly do to a stock 69 Camaro. Maybe not the machine work to the block and heads. That's literally all I couldn't do.

This holds true for a 1979 and 89 Camaro too. By 99, some tech is getting more modern, but honestly most of it is still much closer to '69, than to today.
In 40 years, heck even 20 years from now.....do you guys think the 6th gen cars will still be running well.....even with all the tech and software, and will a Chevy dealer be able to work on them? What about your local garage? What about you and I? Will part be available? C5 Corvette guys have trouble getting body control and brake modules for cars just over 15 years old, they don't have CLOSE to the tech our 6th gens have.



All cars wear out. All parts eventually break. When they do, and they will, where do you see the 6th gen??? Part of my enjoyment in owning my 89 Iroc for 20 years is that getting the parts and knowledge for fixes was never difficult. Sometime actually DOING the work was tough, but I never felt like anything was beyond me being able to get it done.

Vintage muscle is like comparing a WW2 P51 Mustang fighter to a Modern F35 fighter. The P51 was raw, just stick, rudder and throttle, vacuums, hydraulics etc. The F35 is that along with a shitload of electronics, computers etc. The F35 is more efficient, faster, deadly,capable etc. Some think modern planes look better I personally think the P51 styling is pretty badass and I like the WW2 fighter styling better The P51 is easy to work on just like a 69 camaro. The F35 has electronics, lots of or wiring, electronic boards, computers etc. Same with the modern camaro. But given that the Modern camaro still looks good, is faster, more efficient...But..unless you really know WTF you are doing you can't work on them other than basics. But just by looking at YT you do see a lot of guys working on them and they seem to know WTF they are doing as the take them apart and put them back together. So in answer to your question. I really just don't know.

[UnknownJinX]

Originally Posted by CamaroRSOnt

Doesn't matter by the time my Camaro is out of it's 6 yr bumper to bumper warranty I'll be looking to upgrade again anyways. I kept my C7 for 6 yrs as well. A '69 Camaro is a cool car but it's still 1969 technology, drives like a 1969, no comparison. I had a 1978 Z28 bought new , seemed like a wonderful car at the time, a piece of crap compared to my 2020, under powered, poor handling, cheap interior. My older brother had a '67 Mustang -289, very nice car to look at but poorly built, didn't stand up, tranny issues, bad brakes.



Of those buying Camaro's 98% will never think to work on it anyways, something goes wrong it goes back to the dealer. A very small niche of owners actually want to get their hands dirty, probably most of those are found on this forum.


From a valuation viewpoint, rose colored glasses, 69 Camaros are highly valued today because the baby boomers have money. It's a generational thing, this will pass as the next generation moves up in wealth and sets their sights on something different, the car that took their fancy in their youth. I expect whatever that car(s) is it will have a lot more tech in it. I have a 42 yr old neighbour, tells me his 1991 Z28 was his favourite car of all time, yup pure sports car, all of 200 HP, that's kinda embarrassing now a days.

Very much this. Basically, either you get something that's easy to work on but will get its butt beat by a modern hot hatch, gets 10 MPG if you are lucky and is essentially a death trap if anything runs into you, or do you want a car that's more efficient, safer and performs better but will be difficult to work on down the line?

Different strokes for different people, but each option has its drawbacks. Not everything is fun and roses on classics, espeicially when it comes to actually driving them.

Cars are not investments, so just enjoy it and don't worry about the long-term stuff.

[mrgoodbytes]

Originally Posted by L8Apex

No camaro is worth anywhere close to that, I'd probably be driving an M4 instead if I were over there

It’s due to taxes. The M4 is much more expensive.

[Mountain]

As mentioned, the major concern will be with the proprietary electronics.

However, most OEMs contract their suppliers to continue to build parts for around 15 years after the last model year of regular production. So, if Camaro ends in 2022MY, you can expect to find OEM replacement parts until 2037.

After that, many times, some other company will buy tooling and tech from the original supplier to continue to produce parts until the tooling no longer supports building the parts or it doesn't make sense to make parts in respect to profits. This could be 5 years, or it could be another 15 years.

I've had a variety of 1990-2000 vehicles in the 2010+, from what I could confirm, original ECMs, BCMs, ABS modules and audio modules still working fine. I could also find modules in junk yards and even in parts stores (although "special order"). So, as far as electronics, it will also come down to how well they are made, how complex they are and how much of a demanding cycle the electronics see...

You will still find 1967 Camaros running pretty and perfect in 2090. You may not find a 2017 Camaro though. At least not with it's original up-fittings.

At least with something like a Camaro or Mustang or Corvette, you decent production numbers to work off of. With something like a Ford GT, Lexus LFA or McLaren Senna, low-volume is likely to kill incentive to supply in later years quicker.

[Abubaca]

But..unless you really know WTF you are doing you can't work on them other than basics.

Well I'm no modern car expert, but working on them isn't what scares me. It's parts availability. ...and potentially worse would be a perceived lack of value because of it. Could you imagine having 25 year 6th gen, in pristine condition, low mileage, and some electronic part goes out that can't be replaced? I don't see why that's not very real possibility!


Now sure....own it, drive it, worry about all this later. I get it. Cars aren't good long term investments. But still....this is something I think about with a modern car.