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Old 06-26-2018, 08:33 PM   #1
Mr. Wyndham
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ZL1 1LE Alignment: Revelations!

Ok....dramatic title notwithstanding, I think I'm onto something here....

Last season, and the beginning of this season led to several conversations about how the insides of the Goodyear 3R tires were wearing MUCH faster than the outsides during track use...to the point of tearing and delamination in at least one case. I know my front right tire burned through to the cords on the inside.

Anyways, before the Camaro Fest last year, I brought the car to Pete at JPSS on my way down to Kentucky so we could get the car up on a lift and stare at it before lowering the spring perches and switching the camber plates to "track". We (just for fun) put old school toe plates on the car to measure before and after switching the camber plates on the car. No time for a full, proper alignment. The measurements suggested the tires toed out when you switched the camber plates....

Fast-Forward to this May. I had just ordered brand new tires for the car. The same OE Goodyear 3R (I genuinely love these tires). And I intended to get the car aligned to see if something was wrong that cause such uneven wear like I (and others) experienced. But as I thought about it, I figured I'd need at least two...one in "street mode", then another in "track mode" to see what happens when the plates are switched.

The only place I trusted to really pull this off, and (most importantly) the only place patient enough to deal with me is Tom Henry Chevrolet in Bakerstown, PA. I've bought all three Camaros I've had (and the Sonic) from these guys. Tom is a HUGE Camaro/Corvette fanatic and was eager to get his guys on this project. I worked with Ray, who was amazing...a fun guy, and willing to have me back there and discussing the whole deal with respect for what I knew and wanted out of this.

When I got there I found some new equipment since the last time I'd been there, which was great - because the precision was just what I wanted.

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The results were telling.

First off - HUGE kudos to GM for having this car aligned nearly perfect in street mode right out of the factory...and a year later, after several track days and 5000 street miles. The Tech was able to find two FEA alignment settings in the GM system.

First printout is the street settings, the Second printout shows the track settings, plus my before (switching the camber plates and lowering the perches 80%), and after (alignment in track settings).

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When you do nothing but switched the camber plates to track mode...Ray and I noticed that the tires toed out nearly .25ļ. That doesn't sound like much, but I think it is affecting the wear of these tires. For those that aren't super familiar (and I'm by no means an expert)...toe out will increase the wear on the inside of your tires. Toe in, will increase the wear on the outsides.

Since this car sees nearly as many track miles as it does street miles thanks to the new trailer...I decided to prioritize the track alignment, and let the street settings fall were they may when we turned the camber back to street again. I figured with such aggressive camber, and considering how much the insides wore down last year...some toe in and extra wear on the outside of the tires during street driving would be acceptable.

As far as the rear tires...GM recommends 2.0ļ of camber in the rear for track...but that's nuts for street driving, so I opted to stay conservative back there. I don't want to get it aligned each track day. 1.6 for now...perhaps 1.8 a little later in the season.

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We also did a brake fluid bleed, diff fluid change, and oil change to the new Mobil 1 ESP 0W-40 (Dexos). Tom had brought in cases of the stuff as soon as it was available for all his Camaro and Corvette buyers.

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I have to get a photo of the front tires for you guys (I realize as I type this it's too late to go outside and snag one)...but I've driven about 1000 miles so far on these tires. ~300 of which were on track (Pocono & Mid Ohio so far). And they are wearing remarkably evenly. After the Camaro Fest this July I think I'll be able to say whether or not they are wearing better or the same as last year.

Bottom Line - I hadn't seen anyone post real detailed info about alignments on this car, yet. In my opinion...if you track your car, get it aligned with the track settings to get another day or two out of these tires.
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Old 06-26-2018, 08:48 PM   #2
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Good stuff! Sounds like you've got a great dealer too. Have fun out there.
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Old 06-26-2018, 09:00 PM   #3
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Very good info, thanks for sharing
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:01 AM   #4
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That is great info. Sir I thankyou, I too have a. ZL1LE that I have just started tracking, I have only been out once at Thompson CT 1.7 mile course, the car is all stock, 700 miles on it, but I truly enjoyed my first outing with it. One question I have is how much air pressure were you running to start verses after a session how much it built up to? I am running the camber in street right now, I have not rotated them yet. I will be out again on July 6, and might try it in track settings to feel how it will rotate in the corners vs. street.
I to will be watching my tire wear even more as I see and understand what you have shown us in your write up,

thanks Nathan...
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:16 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Colormegone View Post
That is great info. Sir I thankyou, I too have a. ZL1LE that I have just started tracking, I have only been out once at Thompson CT 1.7 mile course, the car is all stock, 700 miles on it, but I truly enjoyed my first outing with it. One question I have is how much air pressure were you running to start verses after a session how much it built up to? I am running the camber in street right now, I have not rotated them yet. I will be out again on July 6, and might try it in track settings to feel how it will rotate in the corners vs. street.
I to will be watching my tire wear even more as I see and understand what you have shown us in your write up,

thanks Nathan...
The Chevy track guide suggests 28psi cold, and thatís what I set it to. Hot pressures are probably in the 33-34 range. I canít remember exactly what the dash says.
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Old 06-27-2018, 07:35 AM   #6
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When I did mine to TrackMode earlier this year.... The camber (to my surprise) was -2.5 using my Longacre unit and matched the alignment shop BUT, toe was way off. And that is something that GM should just say in the book, if you alter your camber your toe will change no matter what. (just a fact of the mechanics). The Hunter unit had the Zl1/1LE Track setting in it already and was spot-on afterwards. Great stuff.

I stayed with the Track alignment at -2.7 front and -2.0 rear... my wear seems to be pretty good. (With the staggered setup on the cars, you'd typically go through 2 rears to 1 front....)

(Side Note....for anyone with Mac IOS, the Bootcamp works nice if you download Win10 and create a partition...so you can then upload the Cosworth Toolbox)
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:32 AM   #7
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Toe will wear tires very fast. You are right, toe out will wear the insides of a tire more and toe in will wear the outsides more. Small changes in toe create big changes in steering and wear.

In contrast, camber does NOT wear tires that fast, unless it is at an extreme and you drive on a setting not compliment to your driving. In example, if you put in aggressive camber, and you rarely go to the road course or autocross, you will eventually wear out the inside shoulder of the tire (speaking to neg camber). However, if you do a decent amount of performance driving, and you also drive on the street, you will likely not encounter biased wear to the inside shoulder (actually, you may see even wear). However, if you run something like -4 degrees of camber on the street, it will accelerate wear to the inside shoulder; still, not as fast as toe can.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:33 AM   #8
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You don't mention heat cycles. Heat cycles are as important or more important than tread wear. You will get no more than 15 heat cycles of out of a set of track tires before the grip is reduced to a point that normal on track driving may lead to a tire wall detour.

You typically get at least three heat cycles per track day, maybe more. Using an average of three heat cycles you get 6 track days out of a set of tires. You can run the most aggressive ZLE alignment and those magical GYs will heat cycle out before they wear out.

FYI -- the faster you get on track. the faster your tires will heat cycle out becuase they get hotter.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:35 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaamacat View Post
When I did mine to TrackMode earlier this year.... The camber (to my surprise) was -2.5 using my Longacre unit and matched the alignment shop BUT, toe was way off. And that is something that GM should just say in the book, if you alter your camber your toe will change no matter what. (just a fact of the mechanics). The Hunter unit had the Zl1/1LE Track setting in it already and was spot-on afterwards. Great stuff.

I stayed with the Track alignment at -2.7 front and -2.0 rear... my wear seems to be pretty good. (With the staggered setup on the cars, you'd typically go through 2 rears to 1 front....)

(Side Note....for anyone with Mac IOS, the Bootcamp works nice if you download Win10 and create a partition...so you can then upload the Cosworth Toolbox)
The toe isn't off. The toe is exactly where I would set it for track use. I prefere 0.50 Toe OUT for optimal performance.
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Old 06-27-2018, 10:53 AM   #10
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Not to be the bearer of bad news, but this isn't the reason for the weird tire wear.

I put my car on a rack almost immediately just to check things out and the factory alignment was terrible. I switched the plates to "track" and adjusted toe when the car had under 50 miles. I got 7 heat cycles out of the fronts (7 track sessions).

There is something else at play here. Perhaps some sort of dynamic toe change under braking?? Temps looked great across the tire, yet they still corded on the inside. With that said, the Viper ACR get's a day out of the fronts, so this may not be unheard of.
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:51 PM   #11
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The toe isn't off. The toe is exactly where I would set it for track use. I prefere 0.50 Toe OUT for optimal performance.
Total toe on mine was -0.52 after the initial camber set to Track. now is 0.10 and in-spec per Hunter ZL1 1LE Track Setup within their GM specs. Toe is going to change when camber is altered. (preference on how you like it is obviously up to the owner).
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Old 06-27-2018, 12:54 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanblurr View Post
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but this isn't the reason for the weird tire wear.

I put my car on a rack almost immediately just to check things out and the factory alignment was terrible. I switched the plates to "track" and adjusted toe when the car had under 50 miles. I got 7 heat cycles out of the fronts (7 track sessions).

There is something else at play here. Perhaps some sort of dynamic toe change under braking?? Temps looked great across the tire, yet they still corded on the inside. With that said, the Viper ACR get's a day out of the fronts, so this may not be unheard of.
Viper has pretty sizable suspension parts. I know most have rear toe "issues" under flex when high HP/TQ is in play but, it very well could be as you say the dynamics under heavy braking.
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:39 PM   #13
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Great thread. Useful info. Following.

Thanks all.
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Old 06-27-2018, 02:56 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JusticePete View Post
You don't mention heat cycles. Heat cycles are as important or more important than tread wear. You will get no more than 15 heat cycles of out of a set of track tires before the grip is reduced to a point that normal on track driving may lead to a tire wall detour.

You typically get at least three heat cycles per track day, maybe more. Using an average of three heat cycles you get 6 track days out of a set of tires. You can run the most aggressive ZLE alignment and those magical GYs will heat cycle out before they wear out.

FYI -- the faster you get on track. the faster your tires will heat cycle out becuase they get hotter.


Iím not at the point where Iím noticing heat cycles, yet. But youíre right this is a factor. I have been doing 4-6 sessions per day each track day...this year, 2 days so far. I estimate that is 8-12 heat cycles. So I should start to notice some fall off in grip at the Camaro Fest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanblurr View Post
Not to be the bearer of bad news, but this isn't the reason for the weird tire wear.

I put my car on a rack almost immediately just to check things out and the factory alignment was terrible. I switched the plates to "track" and adjusted toe when the car had under 50 miles. I got 7 heat cycles out of the fronts (7 track sessions).

There is something else at play here. Perhaps some sort of dynamic toe change under braking?? Temps looked great across the tire, yet they still corded on the inside. With that said, the Viper ACR get's a day out of the fronts, so this may not be unheard of.
Interesting, I didnít realize those cars had such short front tire life.
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