[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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We have a Camaro 1LE on non stock tires competing against a Mustang on stock tires, and the review still preferred the Mustang in the end, as many others have as well. On stock tires the times would have likely been very similar.

Each day you get into your car you are not setting out to set a record track time, this is where the Camaro continues to miss the mark.

Just when I was beginning to think the Mustang vs Camaro war had died down until the GT500 released here we go again.

Performance minded drivers who want to go fast for more than a few seconds at a time seem to prefer Camaros. I personally dont put much weight into "street manners". I dont and never will daily drive a car. I measure a cars value to me by smiles per mile.

That said the Mustang has come a long way since 2015-17. I know people who prefer the Mustang based solely on the body and appearance. I know people who prefer the Mustang because of the color options. It is easily modded with a billion companies who make parts just for Mustangs and some of my gearhead friends like it for that reason.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Just when I was beginning to think the Mustang vs Camaro war had died down until the GT500 released here we go again.

Performance minded drivers who want to go fast for more than a few seconds at a time seem to prefer Camaros. I personally dont put much weight into "street manners". I dont and never will daily drive a car. I measure a cars value to me by smiles per mile.

That said the Mustang has come a long way since 2015-17. I know people who prefer the Mustang based solely on the body and appearance. I know people who prefer the Mustang because of the color options. It is easily modded with a billion companies who make parts just for Mustangs and some of my gearhead friends like it for that reason.

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The way I see this is if you want the absolute best track car the 1LE is for you, review after review come to the same conclusion. If you want the best car for everything else the Mustang may make more sense.

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The way I see this is if you want the absolute best track car the 1LE is for you, review after review come to the same conclusion. If you want the best car for everything else the Mustang may make more sense.

I would re-phrase that as (between the SS and GT),

Best track car: Camaro SS 1LE
Best canyon carver: Camaro SS or Camaro SS 1LE
Best daily driver but with weekend road course: Camare SS or SS 1LE
Best daily driver with no tracking and no modding: Toyota Camry, etc...
Best daily driver with no tracking but still want American muscle: Mustang GT PP1
Best for modding for big boost: Mustang GT
Best for 1/4 mile and modding: Mustang GT* or Hellcat Redeye

Keep in mind, I don't care much for lap times or track times (yes they are important, but there will always be a faster car), I am talking about driving experience.

Plus, let's not forget that looks are subjective, AND a big factor in purchase. SO, if you hate the looks of the Camaro, and love to canyon carve, get the PP2 and change out the tires, the PP1 is quite soft on the back-roads.

Again, like I said, both cars are excellent, and this whole discussion is splitting hairs a bit.

But, just as a reference, I have done a couple of HPDE's a year since 2016, and have been adopted by a BMW club at the local road course (I even joined thier club). Those guys have gotten to know my car (which is an SS non-1LE)(and I have let some of them drive it to/from lunch off track), and they all call it the best M car that was ever built...

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by Ethanolic

All valid points with the exception of #1 ...People on this site would be up in arms if the Mustang was allowed a tire swap... Trofeo R’s on a GT350 ...Camaro5 would have melted down.

They should have run the car on the tires it comes with.

I can't speak for what would or wouldn't have happend with other peoples opinion, but I don't care either way. I wish they would have run the Supercar 3's it would've still been a win.

[metros11]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The way I see this is if you want the absolute best track car the 1LE is for you, review after review come to the same conclusion. If you want the best car for everything else the Mustang may make more sense.

Go ahead and define 'everything else'.

[carguy55]

I was on track yesterday with a PP2 and it was very fast. Turns out it was a very experienced advanced / instructor level driver. He didn't realize the car needed the extra coolers to run on track, but had no issues so far. He's Cup 2s looked like they were worn out already

[Bhobbs]

Originally Posted by newmoon

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The way I see this is if you want the absolute best track car the 1LE is for you, review after review come to the same conclusion. If you want the best car for everything else the Mustang may make more sense.

When it comes to the PP2, I disagree. By making the Cup tires stock, they took away from the street car/daily driver aspect the Mustang does well. The major issue is they didn’t add the components to make it a track car. The PP2 is a track car that isn’t equipped for the track, so they say it’s not a track car but it’s on tires basically meant only for the track.

The performance of the GT350 really painted Ford into a corner.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Bhobbs

When it comes to the PP2, I disagree. By making the Cup tires stock, they took away from the street car/daily driver aspect the Mustang does well. The major issue is they didn’t add the components to make it a track car. The PP2 is a track car that isn’t equipped for the track, so they say it’s not a track car but it’s on tires basically meant only for the track.

The performance of the GT350 really painted Ford into a corner.

I don't know about the whole track/street car argument. IMO Ford shouldn't have put Cup2s on the car if it didn't have proper cooling as these tires are clearly track oriented. Maybe a set of 305 series PS 4S tires would have been the better choice to offer improved street performance over the standard PP1 275s.

[mjk3888]

Originally Posted by carguy55

I was on track yesterday with a PP2 and it was very fast. Turns out it was a very experienced advanced / instructor level driver. He didn't realize the car needed the extra coolers to run on track, but had no issues so far. He's Cup 2s looked like they were worn out already

Thats awesome!!! I hope I see some on the track soon! Always fun to have a target to chase.

Side note, I'm curious if any of them will start running the Supercar 3's once the new sizes come out. Much more affordable than Cup 2s and likely close in performance.

[NW-99SS]

Good video by the Canucks.

I always ask for road course comparisons to be done on the same tire, so I was happy to see them put Cup2s on both cars. For a true stock comparison, yes the GYs should have been on the 1LE. Last tire comment, I always take into account tire spec, whether is benefits the car I prefer during a test or not. I prefer apples to apples. Same tire is perfect as it leaves the car's mechanical features to determine it's capabilities.

Overheating Diff - or lack thereof - 22 C is a cool day, so I would hardly use this video as evidence that the PP2 doesn't have the issue found by other reviews. I won't say the PP2 isn't capable, but for lapping, especially 20+ min sessions, this video doesn't address those temps/conditions.

Mustang planted comment - A lower torque motor exiting a corner will always feel more planted - or less loose...you can apply more throttle earlier, giving the sense of the car being hooked up - not because it is, but because it has less torque to deal with going WOT past an apex.

Both are great cars. I applaud Ford and GM for even making them available to us. It's crazy to think how far this rivalry has come since the late 80's and 90's when both were just beginning to experiment with larger sway bars and stiffer spring rates.

[Gunkk]

For those who have not seen it yet, the the same guys did a track comparison video here:

https://www.camaro6.com/forums/showthread.php?t=555987

[Idaho2018GTPremium]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Just when I was beginning to think the Mustang vs Camaro war had died down until the GT500 released here we go again.

Performance minded drivers who want to go fast for more than a few seconds at a time seem to prefer Camaros. I personally dont put much weight into "street manners". I dont and never will daily drive a car. I measure a cars value to me by smiles per mile.

That said the Mustang has come a long way since 2015-17. I know people who prefer the Mustang based solely on the body and appearance. I know people who prefer the Mustang because of the color options. It is easily modded with a billion companies who make parts just for Mustangs and some of my gearhead friends like it for that reason.

Or GT350/GT350R.

A big reason why I chose a Mustang over the Camaro was for the looks. I absolutely dig the 2018+ GT PP1 styling. It also has the other things review comparisons always harp on the Camaro for that were important to me: better visibility, bigger backseat (although still small), 50% larger trunk. Also, in fall of '18 when I was looking at cars, the GT offered the A10 and much more safety tech than the SS did.

Not to mention, the Gen 3 Coyote has a slight hp advantage, and the Gen 3 Coyote screams up top and sounds downright exotic IMO at high rpms. Ford really improved the exhaust sound in the 18s compared to earlier versions as well. Sure, it is down on torque 35 ft lbs to the SS, but it's no slouch there (420 ft-lbs rated torque). The Gen 3 Coyote is a huge upgrade in low and mid-range torque over Gen 2 and earlier Coyote versions, as well as a big upgrade up top. It sings at 7,000-7,500 rpm. I've never had a V8 rev close to that high, so that was an advantage in my book this time around. I'm OK with sacrificing torque below 2,500 rpm for that extra 1,000 rpm up top.

Anyway, to each his own, and I'm so glad where Pony cars have come compared to years past.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by Idaho2018GTPremium

Or GT350/GT350R.

A big reason why I chose a Mustang over the Camaro was for the looks. I absolutely dig the 2018+ GT PP1 styling. It also has the other things review comparisons always harp on the Camaro for that were important to me: better visibility, bigger backseat (although still small), 50% larger trunk. Also, in fall of '18 when I was looking at cars, the GT offered the A10 and much more safety tech than the SS did.

Not to mention, the Gen 3 Coyote has a slight hp advantage, and the Gen 3 Coyote screams up top and sounds downright exotic IMO at high rpms. Ford really improved the exhaust sound in the 18s compared to earlier versions as well. Sure, it is down on torque 35 ft lbs to the SS, but it's no slouch there (420 ft-lbs rated torque). The Gen 3 Coyote is a huge upgrade in low and mid-range torque over Gen 2 and earlier Coyote versions, as well as a big upgrade up top. It sings at 7,000-7,500 rpm. I've never had a V8 rev close to that high, so that was an advantage in my book this time around. I'm OK with sacrificing torque below 2,500 rpm for that extra 1,000 rpm up top.

Anyway, to each his own, and I'm so glad where Pony cars have come compared to years past.

For me there is nothing the Mustang has, any of them, that would make me pick it over a Camaro.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

For me there is nothing the Mustang has, any of them, that would make me pick it over a Camaro.

Have to agree. This PP2 is slower than the standard GT in any forum other than track, the Bullitt is extremely disappointing even slower than a base GT. New GT Manual is 2015-2017 slow. All failures IMO and not worth the $$$. Only GT even worth talking about would be the A10 PP1.