[CamaroRSOnt]

Originally Posted by cellsafemode

.you dont need fully autonomous cars for the end of personal ownership. The trend towards people just using them as a service is already moving in that direction with no sign of stopping. Between rental cars and ride hailing (taxi's .uber etc) ... the shift towards not needing to own a car is growing and will continue to grow so long as all of the reasons why it's growing still exist (and they likely will unless a revolution occurs against the wealthy).

The high cost of electrics now wont stop the conversion to electrics. There are factors at play in the cost that have nothing to do with the underlying technology and more to do with marketing / economic choices like entrenched franchised business models and the need to control the entire car ownership market from beginning to end as much as possible...which plays into making everything proprietary and thus more expensive. But the same thing is happening to ICE cars too.

The end user wont see the benefits of electric in terms of cost...the companies that build them will. They have no incentive to pass on savings to the buyer since they're not operating in a capitalist economy. They're a few very huge companies that squash nearly any and all attempts at capitalism trying to poke it's head in.

Yup your right, were just too stupid to see the trend. Rental cars and taxi's , mass transit who knew that would kill car sales , when is that supposed to start? Those lime colored scooters are new though, I'll give you that.


China is now the largest IC car market in the world sales growing from 2m a year in 2000 to 25m last year. People get wealthier, seems they want to own a car not catch a Uber, although after a couple of drinks it would be a wise thing to do. Nice trend, you can see where this is going as the third world grows richer. Still sell about 17m a year in the U.S. yr in and yr out. Tesla sales were flat in the U.S. last year (195k) over 2018 even with the introduction of the Model 3 (it killed Model S/X Sales) and EV sales dropped 45% in China when they removed the subsidies this past year, I see a trend there when they remove subsidies:



Bankruptcies and slowdown hang over China's electric car ...
Jun 12, 2019 - China's electric vehicle sales have grown tenfold since 2014 and last year it ... That will force companies to raise prices, wiping away one of the key ... he said, referring to the difficulty of making people switch to electric cars.


Electric dreams in danger as funding dwindles for China's ...

Jun 18, 2019 - Electric dreams in danger as funding dwindles for China's Tesla challengers. Kane Wu ... Fundraising by Chinese EV companies. Deal value ...


China's electric car sales slump, squeezing automakers - ABC ...

Dec 10, 2019 - “China is recognizing you don't need 400 EV companies. ... “I also worry that when an electric car has a problem, it will cost me a fortune to ...China's electric car sales are stalling following the end of multibillion-dollar subsidies that made it the biggest market for the technology

[Rayvan]

Originally Posted by Number 3

Seems that way. My question is what’s the best car. Period. Not even a emissions question. Simply if you can get a Camaro that is less than 3 seconds to 60, wouldn’t you consider it? Nope! It doesn’t rumble.

Oh, brother...

For most, it's not even about the sound. it's about living with them, and It's about being constantly inconvenienced. One can't just park, they gotta plug them in first. They go to leave work and they can't just leave, they gotta store the power cord.

They then also gotta worry about someone messing with your cord, so every owner is constantly checking to be sure someone didn't grab their outlet.

Your hands end up filthy, as the power cords are always being dragged though the filth parking lots, so you either have to go back in and wash your hands, or carry rags and hand-cleaner.

Folks here at work are constantly feuding over getting their cords unplugged by some other "woke" owner; the plug-in-hybrid owners are always at-odds with the full-electric guys, who claim that they're a higher priority.

One lady won't even drive her electric in the rain, as she'd afraid to plug in when the chargers are wet.

Tesla's model S and X take at least an hour to recharge, and that's using their Supercharger. Keep in mind, charging to 100% isn't even recommended for any electric car, as it's bad for the batteries. So can they really claim what they claim? Not really.

When an electric car can beat my Camaro to LA from SF (450 mi), I'll consider one (I drive there a lot for Hockey).

I had this interesting conversation with a Tesla owner here at work, who's constantly denigrating the ICE cars; when I suggested this very race (above), he said there's no way my Tesla can beat your Camaro to LA. I'd have to re-charge, and even at a supercharger at Harris Ranch, it takes more than an hour, and that's if you don't have to wait in the queue for access.

I said okay, Is your Tesla fully charged right now? He said ya.

I said okay, hypothetically, my car's gas tank is empty. You leave right now, I'll have to stop for gas, and I'll also usually stop somewhere up the Grapevine to gas up, just to be sure I'd have enough when I get stuck in the inevitable LA traffic.

He admitted I'd win, as he'd have to stop to recharge at least once (adding at least an hour).

I then offered again; you leave now with your fully charged Tesla, My Camaro needs gas, as does my old Navigator SUV I've got at home. I'll let you leave right now, I'll gas up the Camaro, drive it home and drop it off, I'll then grab the SUV, drive IT to the gas station, fill IT up, then drive the SUV to LA. Would you beat me then?

He thought about it. He said it might be close (it wouldn't be). I then said let me know when Tesla can build a car that can.

Only way I'd consider one is if it had a 500 mile range, and/or, one could charge it from 0% to 100% in ten minutes.

They got a ways to go....

[Abubaca]

The average person's car in 1900 had to be fed actual food, slept in a barn and pooped in the road. Twenty years later the Ford model had a 177 cubic inch 6 cylinder and could go 45 mpg. 80 years later, well, we all know the 2000 Camaro SS. We're now 20 years past that.

I have no love for EVs for sure, and have had many ICE Camaros, and think that Tesla...ummm "truck" thing is an abomination, so trust me, I get it. No EV for you? All good. ...but if not EV, then what? And when? Driven by lies and politics? Probably, sure....I agree. ...but if not EV, then what? And when?

[cellsafemode]

i mean.. if you want to move to china to retain your handle on owning your own personal transport for longer ...that's your choice.

We're already seeing laws around not driving personal vehicles in parts of major cities in the US (and that has happened in europe already as well).

I doubt mass transit will take over in the US due to the way everything has been designed ..but with less disposable income, ever increasing housing costs and education related debt ...getting driven to places on-demand can easily make more financial sense than the burden of owning a car and the costs associated with it. The only thing stemming it is cultural inertia.

[CamaroRSOnt]

Agree Rayvan , I put up a link earlier where the Wall St Journal had 8 drivers around the world spend a week with an EV. One of them said he would like to keep it, mostly because he was in China and had a charger at his residence, got preferred parking and licensing with it. One lady did a 10 hour drive thru Michigan and back to her home, with charging it took 30 hours, a lot of that time searching for chargers then strumming her fingers while the slow chargers did their job.



Tesla is bad for service, here a story from Jan 30th, Tesla charging $4,000 for a new headlight.... worth a read : https://www.solarquotes.com.au/blog/...-consumer-law/


EV, especially Tesla owners don't like to publicly complain but go on their BB's and find out the big issues they have with service and getting simple things fixed. One guy had a fender bender, took 3 months to get replacement parts to the body shop. Some body shops refuse to work on them. Drive trains have been a huge issue for Tesla,
a very large percentage of the Model S and X's have had to have new drive systems put in, so much for simplicity. Wonder where the Model 3's will be when they get enough miles on them.




Nobody in their right mind wants to pay a premium price for a product that has less functionality. Virtuous signalling has saved the day for Tesla.


Cellsafemode I feel for you living in California , what a looney tune state that has become. Most of us don't have to deal with that crap.




If you want a education on how many problems Tesla has with their drive train units/motors click on this link and peruse thru a few of these sub topics:


http://www.janeen.com/tmfans/#gsc.ta...nits&gsc.sort=



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[Number 3]

Originally Posted by Rayvan

Oh, brother...

For most, it's not even about the sound. it's about living with them, and It's about being constantly inconvenienced. One can't just park, they gotta plug them in first. They go to leave work and they can't just leave, they gotta store the power cord.

They then also gotta worry about someone messing with your cord, so every owner is constantly checking to be sure someone didn't grab their outlet.

Your hands end up filthy, as the power cords are always being dragged though the filth parking lots, so you either have to go back in and wash your hands, or carry rags and hand-cleaner.

Folks here at work are constantly feuding over getting their cords unplugged by some other "woke" owner; the plug-in-hybrid owners are always at-odds with the full-electric guys, who claim that they're a higher priority.

One lady won't even drive her electric in the rain, as she'd afraid to plug in when the chargers are wet.

Tesla's model S and X take at least an hour to recharge, and that's using their Supercharger. Keep in mind, charging to 100% isn't even recommended for any electric car, as it's bad for the batteries. So can they really claim what they claim? Not really.

When an electric car can beat my Camaro to LA from SF (450 mi), I'll consider one (I drive there a lot for Hockey).

I had this interesting conversation with a Tesla owner here at work, who's constantly denigrating the ICE cars; when I suggested this very race (above), he said there's no way my Tesla can beat your Camaro to LA. I'd have to re-charge, and even at a supercharger at Harris Ranch, it takes more than an hour, and that's if you don't have to wait in the queue for access.

I said okay, Is your Tesla fully charged right now? He said ya.

I said okay, hypothetically, my car's gas tank is empty. You leave right now, I'll have to stop for gas, and I'll also usually stop somewhere up the Grapevine to gas up, just to be sure I'd have enough when I get stuck in the inevitable LA traffic.

He admitted I'd win, as he'd have to stop to recharge at least once (adding at least an hour).

I then offered again; you leave now with your fully charged Tesla, My Camaro needs gas, as does my old Navigator SUV I've got at home. I'll let you leave right now, I'll gas up the Camaro, drive it home and drop it off, I'll then grab the SUV, drive IT to the gas station, fill IT up, then drive the SUV to LA. Would you beat me then?

He thought about it. He said it might be close (it wouldn't be). I then said let me know when Tesla can build a car that can.

Only way I'd consider one is if it had a 500 mile range, and/or, one could charge it from 0% to 100% in ten minutes.

They got a ways to go....

First, with a 300 mile range you don’t need to plug in every time you park an EV. For my daily commute I would need to charge once every 2 weeks with out plugging in.

And fast charging now enables 80% in 15 minutes so simply a lot closer than you think.

And unlike an ICE, people work everyday to improve this even further.

[JCunningham]

1000hp 11,500lbft. there numbers are complete bull shit. they dont make street tires that can handle anywhere near that kind of power. 11,500 lbft is 4000lbft more than a top fuel dragster and 10,000lbft more than a semi truck. what would the point be on a street legal truck. If you could get tires to hook you would just be digging a hole in the pavement.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by JCunningham

1000hp 11,500lbft. there numbers are complete bull shit. they dont make street tires that can handle anywhere near that kind of power. 11,500 lbft is 4000lbft more than a top fuel dragster and 10,000lbft more than a semi truck. what would the point be on a street legal truck. If you could get tires to hook you would just be digging a hole in the pavement.

I assumed the same thing when I bought my Model 3 Performance. 500lb ft of instant torque, why am I not roasting the tires off this thing? After owning one for a while what I learned was that these new EV drivetrains have very different traction control systems than the mechanical systems we are used to in the Camaro.

In an ICE based traction control system once the system detects wheel spin it has to signal to the ECU to reduce power, so it pulls timing/cut fuel, etc. by sending the appropriate changes to the engine. Once the wheel spin stops it signals back to the ECU to add timing/fuel, rinse repeat. This is a very slow process when compared to how an EV drivetrain traction control system works. With the EV the sensors and system directly connected to the electric drive unit. The feedback is so much quicker and as a result you can get a lot more grip out of the tires. It is crazy how much more grip Tesla can get out of these crappy eco tires.

The other thing to consider is gearing or lack of it in Tesla and probably Hummer EV as well. With no transmission they have a single reduction gear that is designed to strike a balance of performance and efficiency at various speeds. It is not geared really low like ICE vehicles since it doesn’t need to be with massive torque form the electric motor so it won’t really roast the tires. With ICE we need gearing since the engine only makes peak torque in a relatively small rpm range.

I am a long time Camaro fan and have owned many of them. I think the toughest part to leave behind will be the V8 sound and vibration you get when you put your foot in it. However, the instant torque of EV is very addicting as well. I think one of the things that is still hard to wrap my head around is how easy it is to go fast in the Tesla. I mean, it is too easy, everyone is a hero driver. You plant your foot and you roast just about everything on the road from a dig. Under 3 sec without a peep of tire spin, no drama. At highway speeds it still pulls nice but nothing like it does from down low. For me, 0-60 times have become pretty much meaningless with EVs now as they will all be able to blast to 60 in 3 flat. I look forward to Chevy building us a true performance EV with a great chassis, performance suspension, HUD, and proper styling.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

I look forward to Chevy building us a true performance EV with a great chassis, performance suspension, HUD, and proper styling.

And that’s fine, so long as the Camaro badge is not on it.

[JCunningham]

well the traction control limits the amount of torque. so that doesnt matter. if you cant put it to the ground there is no need for it. but ya the gearing. how much calculated torque does a ZL1 put to the ground with 3.73 gears in 1st? Im sure its no were close to 11,500lbft. i bet they ment 11,500 newton meters like the teslas 10,000nm not lbft. that would be 8400lbft. even with 1:1 gearing still way more then DOT street tires that a OEM can use could handle.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by Petrol Head

And that’s fine, so long as the Camaro badge is not on it.

We will see. Ford has already made the leap with the Mustang. Change is hard but necessary.

[Lynix]

In other news, old men shake fist at cloud. Its the future folks get over it. EV would probably be the best thing for the Camaro, it will always be limited by the Corvette, as an EV it would be able to branch out on its own.

[raptor5244]

Originally Posted by JCunningham

well the traction control limits the amount of torque. so that doesnt matter. if you cant put it to the ground there is no need for it..

True. But the traction control is able to “pulse” the power to the wheels so fast that they can get more traction out of the tires instead of roasting them. Kind of like the way ABS brakes will pulse the brake pedal rather than locking up the tires. At least that is the best way I can explain it.

Also consider many EVs are AWD and heavy and the the RWD models have the rear motor sitting on the rear axle more like a mid engine car. Look how much improvement the C8 gets in 0-60 due to moving the weight to the rear of the vehicle.

Another wild thing is over the air performance upgrades. Owners of the dual motor Tesla Model 3 can purchase an Acceleration Boost for $2k. Click a button in the mobile app in and a couple minutes you just added approximately 50hp HP and torque and dropped your 0-60 and 1/4 mile time .5 sec. As someone who modified my Z06 with a cam, long tube headers, injectors, pulleys, etc. it is pretty hard to get your head wrapped around. Track Mode in the Model 3 was co-developed by Randy Pobst. If they go out and update the tune to improve corner entry or increase regen or relax the stability control it just gets pushed out in an OTA software update., which is pretty cool. I remember when I had to get in line and pay $350 to GM to get an update to mag ride suspension.

[Petrol Head]

Originally Posted by raptor5244

We will see. Ford has already made the leap with the Mustang. Change is hard but necessary.

They put the Mustang badge on it to try to sell more. Not because the car is worthy of the Mustang badge.

Big difference.