[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by mdmoore23

I don't get this statement.

Nor I. The HC's prices have increased, not the Zl1's (or barely). My '13 sold for 63k, and many buyers are getting their new Z's in the mid 60's. The redesign allows for better trans (A10), skidpad, times, interior creature comforts, more safety features, etc. That's not a bad thing.

There may be a rare few that paid msrp on their '17 Z, but I think most received some form of discount(s).

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

A guy I know just took his bone stock 2017 Hellcat with only 200 miles on it and on a stingy mustang dyno, put down 648 RWHP. It's an auto, so add 20% for drivetrain loss and you're at 777 crank HP. This is far from the first time this has happened. At my local shops, Hellcats will dyno at 630-680 RWHP consistently and hero pulls as high as 695 RWHP and 700 RWHP.

In contrast to this, ZL1s have been dynoing at 550-570 RWHP bone stock consistently, and if you add 15% for manuals or 20% for autos for either of those numbers, you get right around 650-660 HP.

So really if you think about it, the average bone stock Hellcat, lays down numbers that are 100-150 RWHP more than a ZL1 or Z06. Remember earlier I talked about a Hellcat putting a fender on a Stage 3 aero Z06...I've seen a stock A8 NO aero Z06 put 2 cars on a Hellcat as well. From a dig, the Hellcat will get murdered by a A8 Z06 as well. Z06s have put down as low as 10.4s on STOCK RUBBER and 10.8s all day bone stock, mid tens with poor drivers/bad air on a drag radial, no issue. I know a guy that owns both a Z06 and a Hellcat, from a dig, no question the Z06 will beat a Hellcat. But from a highway roll, his Hellcat will put a fender on his Z07 M7 (Stage 3 aero) vs Auto Hellcat Charger. If his was an A8, it'd probably stave off the Hellcat period. If it was an auto + stage 1 or 2 aero car, it would badly beat a Hellcat.

Charger Hellcats weigh 4,575 pounds. Coupe, Auto ZL1s weigh 3920 pounds or thereabouts. If we say that the average Hellcat makes 750 HP stock, which is probably on the low side, they're more like 770 HP IMO. And the average ZL1 makes 650 HP, then:

Charger Hellcats have 1 HP for every 6.10 pounds. With a .35 drag coefficient for Chargers and .39 for Challengers.

ZL1s have 1 HP for every 6.03 pounds. With a drag coefficient of .30 for Coupes.

Theoretically, the cars should be very close, however the HP advantage becomes a huge advantage once you're up over 100. Moving it off the line though? I don't see the average Hellcat owner beating a ZL1 off the light, ever.

Besides all that, the ZL1 looks way better, handles way better (As good as most supercars), is built on a brand new chassis and not a chassis originally designed for a grocery getter. Hellcats are also more expensive and entirely too popular. The new wide body cats look a bit better however I can't shake the feeling that it's STILL the same BLASTED car with some bushwhacker flares and the ability to put a wider tire that would also fit a non-wide body cat but stick out a little bit.

[JB'sZL1]

For some reason all HC discussions are invariably directed at times from a dig or a roll...and hp...and nothing else.

They are never directed at track or touring discussions. I have read no less then 10 times the HC does what is was expressly intended to do (go fast in a straight line). As if the Z does not do its (triple threat) job at the strip, track or while touring. Huh.

[CarFlow1]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

For some reason all HC discussions are invariably directed at times from a dig or a roll...and hp...and nothing else.

They are never directed at track or touring discussions. I have read no less then 10 times the HC does what is was expressly intended to do (go fast in a straight line). As if the Z does not do its (triple threat) job at the strip, track or while touring. Huh.

True, sometimes races happen sporadically in the wild, so we take the opportunity to race just to give one another an idea of each vehicles' potential. Also, you make a good point about real world tracking/touring sessions. Personally, I would like to race a HC in an actual tracking environment to get an even better idea of how well our cars operate.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by CarFlow1

Sometimes races happen sporadically in the wild, so we take the opportunity to race just to give one another an idea of each vehicles' potential. However you make a good point about real world tracking/touring sessions. Personally, I would like to race a HC at an actual tracking environment to get a better idea of how are cars operate.

At RA over the weekend (I live 30 minutes away) 6 of 7 of the first finishers were Camaros. No Mustangs, No HC's, one Toyota. Yeah, Baby.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

For some reason all HC discussions are invariably directed at times from a dig or a roll...and hp...and nothing else.

They are never directed at track or touring discussions. I have read no less then 10 times the HC does what is was expressly intended to do (go fast in a straight line). As if the Z does not do its (triple threat) job at the strip, track or while touring. Huh.

While I may agree, the reason why you see so many discussions about the one aspect of the Hellcat, is because that's all it is good at. But it's the good one thing to be good at IMO. Because real world racing, let's face it, it'll be on a high way at 3 honks. I'd be willing to bet only 10% or less ZL1 owners will actually track there cars, and only another small percentage of them will actually set times worth comparing (Most will just get out to have fun, but want to drive their car home at the end of the day so they just have fun and not really race, which is understandable naturally). Straight line speed is the most accessible thing to the average driver and even to the above average driver. Nurburgring talk and track times and want to make a big deal out of the triple threat capability are mostly just that...talk. Few will actually use it. But what can basically any ZL1/Hellcat owner actually do? Put their right foot down on the highway.

We're discussing the one aspect we can compare the ZL1 and Hellcat to. Nobody said the ZL1 doesn't do it well. Nobody. And nobody would. We're discussing the minute details between the two on the highway, in which case, the Hellcat is likely marginally faster.

Let's play it your way though, after this lets only talk about lap times and tracking/touring with the ZL1 and the Hellcat. Lets see how much there is to discuss.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

While I may agree, the reason why you see so many discussions about the one aspect of the Hellcat, is because that's all it is good at. But it's the good one thing to be good at IMO. Because real world racing, let's face it, it'll be on a high way at 3 honks. I'd be willing to bet only 10% or less ZL1 owners will actually track there cars, and only another small percentage of them will actually set times worth comparing (Most will just get out to have fun, but want to drive their car home at the end of the day so they just have fun and not really race, which is understandable naturally). Straight line speed is the most accessible thing to the average driver and even to the above average driver. Nurburgring talk and track times and want to make a big deal out of the triple threat capability are mostly just that...talk. Few will actually use it. But what can basically any ZL1/Hellcat owner actually do? Put their right foot down on the highway.

We're discussing the one aspect we can compare the ZL1 and Hellcat to. Nobody said the ZL1 doesn't do it well. Nobody. And nobody would. We're discussing the minute details between the two on the highway, in which case, the Hellcat is likely marginally faster.

Let's play it your way though, after this lets only talk about lap times and tracking/touring with the ZL1 and the Hellcat. Lets see how much there is to discuss.

I'd say the number will actually be much less than the 10% you listed more like 2-3%. Go back through the pages in this forum and while folks are interested in the track result printed reviews there is virtually no mention of actual track use. In comparison look at the number of posts in regards to street/strip performance.

[Raven87]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'd say the number will actually be much less than the 10% you listed more like 2-3%. Go back through the pages in this forum and while folks are interested in the track result printed reviews there is virtually no mention of actual track use. In comparison look at the number of posts in regards to street/strip performance.

^^^THIS^^^

And, there's nothing wrong with that. We all buy a car for whatever our purpose is but the truth of the matter is that nearly 95% of us who buy these track focused (or at least, 'track capable') cars never take them to the track, much less use them to the 10/10ths of performance they are capable of.

It's all good.

[Sven59]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I'd say the number will actually be much less than the 10% you listed more like 2-3%. Go back through the pages in this forum and while folks are interested in the track result printed reviews there is virtually no mention of actual track use. In comparison look at the number of posts in regards to street/strip performance.

What if the HC never broke a 12 second 1/4 in testing, would that influence your decision to buy? Same with the ring. Do you look up the specs and performance of a smartphone or computer before you buy?

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by Sven59

What if the HC never broke a 12 second 1/4 in testing, would that influence your decision to buy? Same with the ring. Do you look up the specs and performance of a smartphone or computer before you buy?

We're not saying that lap times/1/4 mile times don't matter. Because they do. But we already know most of the HC's and ZL1's capabilities on a track (Very bad, and very good respectively). My point was just to say, it's OK to talk about high way usage without somebody budding in to "Not forget about the ZL1's track performance".

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

Let's play it your way though, after this lets only talk about lap times and tracking/touring with the ZL1 and the Hellcat. Lets see how much there is to discuss.

I didn't write or infer that. The op wrote it was "a race." Not an 1/8th mile, nor a 1/4 mile.

Originally Posted by Can'tHave2MuchHP

without somebody budding in to "Not forget about the ZL1's track performance".

Well...that's just rude.

It's not just the Z's track performance, but drivability whilst touring that the HC lacks. Obviously, these things need not be regurgitated in every thread about the HC. I guess, for those of us that do not read every thread, and read what is written at face value, perhaps you, 2Much, could "budd in" and post that, henceforth, we will only discuss straight line top speed performance, notwithstanding the op's intent of the thread.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by CarFlow1

True, sometimes races happen sporadically in the wild, so we take the opportunity to race just to give one another an idea of each vehicles' potential. Also, you make a good point about real world tracking/touring sessions. Personally, I would like to race a HC in an actual tracking environment to get an even better idea of how well our cars operate.

You'd destroy a HC in a actual track environment. IIRC, the V6-1LE was faster in the 2016 lighting laps. An amusing quote about the HC before it was dismissed...

The Hellcat is the Hulk in Gucci pumps. That said, it’s fun. You run over everything in your way: curbs, trees, flag stations, anything that threatens to make it turn any more than it really has to. And yet the main challenge in the Charger (see what we did there?) is to keep it pointed straight, because it pretty much wants to go all 4.1 miles sideways, backward, or just spinning like a Chinese pinwheel firecracker.
http://www.caranddriver.com/features...p-2016-feature

Whether you use the full potential of your ZL1 or not, it is a complete performance car (triple threat) for less money. If going with the HC for its attributes, I'd chose the Charger for the added convenience of four doors.

[Lampslife]

The ZL1 is overall a better car even though it does not have as much HP as the Hellcat I would take a ZL1 over a Hellcat any day.

[Can'tHave2MuchHP]

Originally Posted by JB'sZL1

I didn't write or infer that. The op wrote it was "a race." Not an 1/8th mile, nor a 1/4 mile.



Well...that's just rude.

It's not just the Z's track performance, but drivability whilst touring that the HC lacks. Obviously, these things need not be regurgitated in every thread about the HC. I guess, for those of us that do not read every thread, and read what is written at face value, perhaps you, 2Much, could "budd in" and post that, henceforth, we will only discuss straight line top speed performance, notwithstanding the op's intent of the thread.

I'm sorry but the OP is CLEARLY talking about racing a Hellcat from a roll and presumably on the highway. Furthermore, I wasn't even talking about you when I said that, because you're definitely not the first one to bring up the ZL1's track performance when talking about straight line performance against Hellcats.

Even if the OP was talking about on track performance, there'd be nothing to discuss except for ZL1 guys pounding their chests. (And I'd be right there doing the same thing).

And, "It's not just the Z's track performance, but drivability whilst touring that the HC lacks." is a unprovable statement. Some may be more comfortable in one car or the other, but as noted by other posters/Hellcat owners that have driven ZL1s, the Hellcat is a more comfortable touring car/road trip. And though I don't want to admit a HC is better than a ZL1 in any way, one look at the plush, wide interior of a Hellcat will tell you. Not that the ZL1 is uncomfortable, the interior is of high quality materials and very well done/designed. However the Hellcat is like riding your favorite arm chair with pedals and a steering wheel.