[shaffe]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

The ultimate goal is to make a profit. You can sell vehicles all day. But if your profit margins are too low then sales figures won't matter...or you'd have to sell even more.

I'll agree that Ford does sell a lot. But I also think that is due to them having Mustangs that are cheap enough that they can offer some very low deals on them. The Camaro doesn't seem to have that type of strategy. Maybe GM will start to offer some cheaper versions or trim levels so they can get these cars into more hands. Maybe they make enough off the ones that do sell that it isn't worth addressing. None of us knows the answer for sure.

True ultimate goal is to make profit, and there are many ways to go about this that could be a discussion for a different day.

The camaro has added that to their strategy lately with lower priced models and adding stuff like the 1LE to the Turbo 4 because they know Mustang sells alot more low trim cars then they do.

Originally Posted by Deki

The problem is, to Ford, sales are the only thing that matters. And as long as they are making money hand over fist, they have no reason to make the mustang any better, which ultimately does not hurt the average car buyer, but it does hurt the performance enthusiasts, and makes the dedicated hard core track guys switch camps, since they can go and get a competitive product at a much lower price, without having to go and spend money on aftermarket parts to make the car last through a track day. The problem is, those people are a very small majority and they don't make a dent in over all sales. I almost bought a 1LE, because objectively, it is a better car in every way. Steering is better, balance is better, better brakes, more torque, much better transmission, includes all necessary equipment to perform at the track without getting into limp mode...and if I did more than 3 track days a year (in a good year), it definitely would have been my choice. Alas, there are other factors when it came to buying a sporty 2+2 coupe, and I ended up with the 18 GT.

I will disagree with that statement, look at all the updates Ford has done since Camaro came back to try and make Mustang Competitive.

2010 refreshed, only sheet metal carried over was for the roof
2010 GT500 power upped to 540
2011 5.0 at 412 HP and updated 3.7
2012 BOSS 302 and BOSS LS
2012 GT500 Power upped to 550
2013 GT HP upped to 420 and refresh
2013 GT500 HP upped to 662
2015 5.0 up to 435
2015 GT350 and 350R
2018 GT Upped to 460, face lift, A10, revised PP1, PP2, BULLITT at 475HP
2020 GT500 700+ HP

That is a hell of a lot of change and upgrades in 10 years, especially if you compare it to the camaro

This will make Blaq happy that I'm saying but Mustang has been chasing Camaro since it came back. If Camaro never came back, Mustang might still just be plodding along with the 3V or maybe the exact 5.0 the F-150 has at around 390HP.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True ultimate goal is to make profit, and there are many ways to go about this that could be a discussion for a different day.

The camaro has added that to their strategy lately with lower priced models and adding stuff like the 1LE to the Turbo 4 because they know Mustang sells alot more low trim cars then they do.




I will disagree with that statement, look at all the updates Ford has done since Camaro came back to try and make Mustang Competitive.

2010 refreshed, only sheet metal carried over was for the roof
2010 GT500 power upped to 540
2011 5.0 at 412 HP and updated 3.7
2012 BOSS 302 and BOSS LS
2012 GT500 Power upped to 550
2013 GT HP upped to 420 and refresh
2013 GT500 HP upped to 662
2015 5.0 up to 435
2015 GT350 and 350R
2018 GT Upped to 460, face lift, A10, revised PP1, PP2, BULLITT at 475HP
2020 GT500 700+ HP

That is a hell of a lot of change and upgrades in 10 years, especially if you compare it to the camaro

This will make Blaq happy that I'm saying but Mustang has been chasing Camaro since it came back. If Camaro never came back, Mustang might still just be plodding along with the 3V or maybe the exact 5.0 the F-150 has at around 390HP.

Competition is almost always a good thing. I still think Ford dropped the ball by not thinking past the 5th gen Camaro. Is the GT500 thinking past the 6th gen ZL1 and the current Challenger? We arent sure yet. The track record has not been good. If the 500 beats a ZL1 in the 1/4 and beats a Hellcat around a road course will that be good enough? It's been 6 years. What are realistic expectations?

[Deki]

Originally Posted by shaffe

True ultimate goal is to make profit, and there are many ways to go about this that could be a discussion for a different day.

The camaro has added that to their strategy lately with lower priced models and adding stuff like the 1LE to the Turbo 4 because they know Mustang sells alot more low trim cars then they do.




I will disagree with that statement, look at all the updates Ford has done since Camaro came back to try and make Mustang Competitive.

2010 refreshed, only sheet metal carried over was for the roof
2010 GT500 power upped to 540
2011 5.0 at 412 HP and updated 3.7
2012 BOSS 302 and BOSS LS
2012 GT500 Power upped to 550
2013 GT HP upped to 420 and refresh
2013 GT500 HP upped to 662
2015 5.0 up to 435
2015 GT350 and 350R
2018 GT Upped to 460, face lift, A10, revised PP1, PP2, BULLITT at 475HP
2020 GT500 700+ HP

That is a hell of a lot of change and upgrades in 10 years, especially if you compare it to the camaro

This will make Blaq happy that I'm saying but Mustang has been chasing Camaro since it came back. If Camaro never came back, Mustang might still just be plodding along with the 3V or maybe the exact 5.0 the F-150 has at around 390HP.

So, I think you and I agree, ultimately. I know ford has made updates, but not as many as they could have. They still have "held back" on certain aspects of the platform. It's also harder for Ford to absorb the costs of developing the Mustang since its a car on it's own platform, while the Alpha platform is used on multiple vehicles under GMs global brand. I remember when j just my 11 GT, Camaros were under steering pigs, and the GT was being compared to the M3 at the time. Not until 2012, when the Camaro got the FE4 suspension update, did they get competitive with the handling, and even then, I still like the live rear better.

[ST1LE]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Competition is almost always a good thing. I still think Ford dropped the ball by not thinking past the 5th gen Camaro. Is the GT500 thinking past the 6th gen ZL1 and the current Challenger? We arent sure yet. The track record has not been good. If the 500 beats a ZL1 in the 1/4 and beats a Hellcat around a road course will that be good enough? It's been 6 years. What are realistic expectations?

Ford is limited by the S550 chassis. They are NOT thinking passed anything, they are fighting to keep up.

Every iteration of the S550 meant to compete with a Camaro counter part needs more tire and more power and costs more than its Camaro rival. The SS 1LE vs the GT350 is the best example of this. The PP2 needs 305 R comp tires up front, clearly handicapped by the chassis when compared to the 1LE 285 street tire.

Good enough is subjective, and can be argued all day without a winner.

[shaffe]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Competition is almost always a good thing. I still think Ford dropped the ball by not thinking past the 5th gen Camaro. Is the GT500 thinking past the 6th gen ZL1 and the current Challenger? We arent sure yet. The track record has not been good. If the 500 beats a ZL1 in the 1/4 and beats a Hellcat around a road course will that be good enough? It's been 6 years. What are realistic expectations?

That's the million dollar question

Originally Posted by Deki

So, I think you and I agree, ultimately. I know ford has made updates, but not as many as they could have. They still have "held back" on certain aspects of the platform. It's also harder for Ford to absorb the costs of developing the Mustang since its a car on it's own platform, while the Alpha platform is used on multiple vehicles under GMs global brand. I remember when j just my 11 GT, Camaros were under steering pigs, and the GT was being compared to the M3 at the time. Not until 2012, when the Camaro got the FE4 suspension update, did they get competitive with the handling, and even then, I still like the live rear better.

I see where you are coming from.

Originally Posted by ST1LE

Ford is limited by the S550 chassis. They are NOT thinking passed anything, they are fighting to keep up.

Every iteration of the S550 meant to compete with a Camaro counter part needs more tire and more power and costs more than its Camaro rival. The SS 1LE vs the GT350 is the best example of this. The PP2 needs 305 R comp tires up front, clearly handicapped by the chassis when compared to the 1LE 285 street tire.

Good enough is subjective, and can be argued all day without a winner.

This ^

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Competition is almost always a good thing. I still think Ford dropped the ball by not thinking past the 5th gen Camaro. Is the GT500 thinking past the 6th gen ZL1 and the current Challenger? We arent sure yet. The track record has not been good. If the 500 beats a ZL1 in the 1/4 and beats a Hellcat around a road course will that be good enough? It's been 6 years. What are realistic expectations?

The real expectation is to be faster than anything the ZL1 can do and be faster than the HC. I'm certain it will meet these goals pretty handily the question is by how much and can it beat the RedEye.

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Being responsible isnt fun though!

I know I was irresponsible with purchasing toys for the past 30 yrs now I am in crunch time prior to retirement.

[Chadicus]

Originally Posted by newmoon

The real expectation is to be faster than anything the ZL1 can do and be faster than the HC. I'm certain it will meet these goals pretty handily the question is by how much and can it beat the RedEye.

Including the ZLE? Or just standard ZL1?

[BlaqWhole]

I think everyone would expect it to beat the standard ZL1 at everything. I'm not sure if it'll beat the standard ZL1 on a track tho. But if it does, then I think it'll be close. Which is nothing to scoff at for either car. I doubt it'll have anything for the ZLE on a track. Not while trying to keep focus on beating the standard HC and keeping up with the Redeye.

[kttxz06]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

I think everyone would expect it to beat the standard ZL1 at everything. I'm not sure if it'll beat the standard ZL1 on a track tho. But if it does, then I think it'll be close. Which is nothing to scoff at for either car. I doubt it'll have anything for the ZLE on a track. Not while trying to keep focus on beating the standard HC and keeping up with the Redeye.

IMO and this is the only thing I care about anyways is on a roll and I think the 500 will sauce the Zl1 on a roll so. But, I look at the overall platform. I think it's gonna be a great platform to mod.................for what I like, which is going to Mexico. A few grand and you are in the 800's with a pulley down/E85 and tune. The 2650 I'd imagine is good for 1000-1100 RWHP. Tops. But, it's like any other car. How far can you push it b4 you have to step up to the $20k mod mark. Meaning, internals, supporting mods, or a different blower.



I can already see guys taking the 2650 off and doing a TT set up and getting 1500 hp with ease. You'll be $30k into it tho.



But, if as mentioned. A few grand and you can move the needle from 750 to prob 850 with just more boost, fuel, and a tune. Can't beat that.

[oldman]

I actually like the way the GT500 looks, and the 7 speed shift itself trans is great for oldguys... After the FAILURE of the new Supra, this at least gives me a car to dream about...

[newmoon]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Including the ZLE? Or just standard ZL1?

I don't think so. Too many sacrifices to make it an all out track car. I personally want to see a street/strip warrior. The balance of the A10 ZL1 is the target.

[jvandy50]

Originally Posted by newmoon

I don't think so. Too many sacrifices to make it an all out track car. I personally want to see a street/strip warrior. The balance of the A10 ZL1 is the target.

Their track pack is aimed right at the ZLE and is supposed to be able to take it...no easy task for sure, and i’m ready to see this battle

[whiteboyblues2001]

Originally Posted by Chadicus

Including the ZLE? Or just standard ZL1?

It seems to me that Ford is setting things up for the normal GT500 to compete against the regular ZL1, and the GT500 with the carbon package to compete with the ZL1/1LE.

I doubt it could beat those cars convincingly, but they might be able to do it. With enough tire and power, the regular GT500 could best the ZL1, and add more agressive tires and enough down force, you never know, it may beat the ZL1/1LE...

But once they announce the power level, and we see how much this thing weighs, the big picture will come into focus.