[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok. With the C8s, a $5K upgrade to the Z51 gets you better tires, bigger brakes (12.6 to 13.6 front rotors and 13.3 to 13.8 rears), better cooling (a third radiator and transmission cooler as well as ducting for the brakes), upgraded performance exhaust, eLSD, PTM, and a different gear ratio (that's arguably a wash if you ask me). We know the Z51 does 0-60 under 3 seconds which is faster than the Base. And we know it goes around a track faster. I think it was a 2 second difference. And just to throw this in there, I believe the ZLE was about 3 seconds faster around a track than the ZL1.

With the GT350, $5K gets you better tires (no debating that), "stiffer springs and shocks to take advantage of the newfound grip, revised Brembo brakes, and improved aerodynamics employing lessons learned from the coming 760-hp 2020 Ford Mustang Shelby GT500"

Revised Brembo brakes. Revised how? Are they bigger? Did it improve the braking? Stiffer springs and shocks. Did it improve the handling in any measurable way? Improved aero. How did that improve the car?

LOL! And people eat this up. So basically, $5K gets me a better set of tires...

...but those tires are “embossed with the FP label, denoting a specific Ford Performance compound.” ...” and cost roughly $400 more per set than the previous Michelin Pilot Super Sports.”

The revised brakes? Ford replaced the “previous cross-drilled brake rotors with smooth-faced units. ... Ford says that the new rotors are less expensive to replace”

Improved aerodynamics equate to the R’s grille opening and a sleeker rear spoiler that generates “51 pounds less than the outgoing wing”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

[TreedYou]

😂😂😂

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by hotlap

...but those tires are “embossed with the FP label, denoting a specific Ford Performance compound.” ...” and cost roughly $400 more per set than the previous Michelin Pilot Super Sports.”

The revised brakes? Ford replaced the “previous cross-drilled brake rotors with smooth-faced units. ... Ford says that the new rotors are less expensive to replace”

Improved aerodynamics equate to the R’s grille opening and a sleeker rear spoiler that generates “51 pounds less than the outgoing wing”

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...y-the-numbers/

This is what I do not understand. The price increases by $5K and there is nothing to show for it except for tires, stiffer springs and shocks, and "revised" brakes. So when I said before that the price went up the Mustang guys got mad and said it included upgrades. When I questioned what the upgrades were this is what I get...a bunch of stuff that does not add up to $5K by any stretch of the imagination nor is there any indication that these upgrades improved the performance. Still the same 12.2 in the quarter mile. Still loses to the ZL1. Oh but it still beats the PP2. So $5K basically gets you better tires.

[hotlap]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

This is what I do not understand. The price increases by $5K and there is nothing to show for it except for tires, stiffer springs and shocks, and "revised" brakes. So when I said before that the price went up the Mustang guys got mad and said it included upgrades. When I questioned what the upgrades were this is what I get...a bunch of stuff that does not add up to $5K by any stretch of the imagination nor is there any indication that these upgrades improved the performance. Still the same 12.2 in the quarter mile. Still loses to the ZL1. Oh but it still beats the PP2. So $5K basically gets you better tires.

Part of the price increase was likely to cover the high warranty costs.

[TreedYou]

The way you guys are triggered by a guy just posting information (not even making a compliment of any sort) on possible changes to a Mustang is H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S

Sorry, I thought I could hold my comments but it was just too funny.

I just picture you guys wrecking your keyboards on instant bash & defend mode in my mind the picture is just ya had to be there.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

The way you guys are triggered by a guy just posting information (not even making a compliment of any sort) on possible changes to a Mustang is H-I-L-A-R-I-O-U-S

Sorry, I thought I could hold my comments but it was just too funny.

I just picture you guys wrecking your keyboards on instant bash & defend mode in my mind the picture is just ya had to be there.

Ok. What exactly am I getting for the extra $5K in price on the 350 and 350R?

[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

Ok. What exactly am I getting for the extra $5K in price on the 350 and 350R?

I didn't say you were wrong, just the reaction was funny to me.
Maybe it's just me and from reading your posts where you drop the wall of text I just picture you yelling at your PC

Definitely not 5k worth of performance I'm sure.

[JB'sZL1]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

Definitely not 5k worth of performance I'm sure.

That's the way I read it. Enough said.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

I didn't say you were wrong, just the reaction was funny to me.
Maybe it's just me and from reading your posts where you drop the wall of text I just picture you yelling at your PC

Definitely not 5k worth of performance I'm sure.

If I don't speak with conviction and passion then is anything I say worth reading or listening to? My comments get your attention. And apparently, my comments get a lot of attention from the other forums. Especially some who have been banned from here...of whom I managed to get their attention when they were here. So I think I'm doing something correctly. Frod increased the price of the GT350s and claimed they gave it tweaks. Some fell for it. I am questioning where those tweaks are to be found, if they are worth the $5K bump in price, and if it can be proven in a quantitative manner.

See, when I stated that the price was increased because Frod wanted in on the markups, others (Mustnag fans) protested and claimed that wasn't the case and that the price increase came with upgrades. So now I am asking where those upgrades are and how they improved the car and...(crickets) (crickets)...no response except tires...and your reply. When I ask if there is any info showing how much the 350 improved...(crickets) (crickets). So WTF does this $5K increase provide? Tires and crickets? Because if there is nothing to be gained from these tweaks then all you're getting is different tires that have no impact on the performance, crickets, and Frod is cashing in because they realized that people are willing to pay more than the original MSRP. And even if right now you go to a dealership and buy a new GT350 with, for gits and shiggles, a $3K discount, you are still paying $2K more for a tire upgrade and the same performance as they had in 15 (GT350) and 16 (GT350R).

[TreedYou]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

If I don't speak with conviction and passion then is anything I say worth reading or listening to? My comments get your attention. And apparently, my comments get a lot of attention from the other forums. Especially some who have been banned from here...of whom I managed to get their attention when they were here. So I think I'm doing something correctly. Frod increased the price of the GT350s and claimed they gave it tweaks. Some fell for it. I am questioning where those tweaks are to be found, if they are worth the $5K bump in price, and if it can be proven in a quantitative manner.

See, when I stated that the price was increased because Frod wanted in on the markups, others (Mustnag fans) protested and claimed that wasn't the case and that the price increase came with upgrades. So now I am asking where those upgrades are and how they improved the car and...(crickets) (crickets)...no response except tires...and your reply. When I ask if there is any info showing how much the 350 improved...(crickets) (crickets). So WTF does this $5K increase provide? Tires and crickets? Because if there is nothing to be gained from these tweaks then all you're getting is different tires that have no impact on the performance, crickets, and Frod is cashing in because they realized that people are willing to pay more than the original MSRP. And even if right now you go to a dealership and buy a new GT350 with, for gits and shiggles, a $3K discount, you are still paying $2K more for a tire upgrade and the same performance as they had in 15 (GT350) and 16 (GT350R).

They are attention getting, I can see that sir.

I agree with this, 5k is a nice little chunk for the same car (except for tires from what I've read). All this is why I will never buy any new car again when you can get such a steal in a few years if you don't always have to be the first of the first to get something it's really rewarding.

[TheRealJA105]

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

My drag strip has a delay on the timer during test and tune sessions. So when the tree lights up you have about 5 seconds. The timer starts as soon as you move or after the 5 seconds is up. During that particular run I lined up to far and had to roll back. So that threw me off my game. My reaction time suffered because of that. The guy I was up against was probably one of the best launchers I ever seen. He took off like a gun shot. And he was a good distance ahead of me for the majority of the run. In a video I have you can even see how far ahead of me he was. However the car he was in has no top end. They fall flat on their face. So I caught him at the end of the quarter mile. My time was 8 tenths faster than his even tho we crossed right about the same time.

All drag strips work this way. The timer doesn't start until your tire rolls out of the stage beam. Basically that guy didn't launch way better than you he just TREEDYOU (see what I did there ), the 60ft time tells you how good the launch is.

Originally Posted by RobbyBeefcake87

I want to agree with your sentiments on the manual club but the zl1 and hellcats have been especially bad as far as people being able to run good times with manual versions. However there have been plenty of 10 second c6 z06s and zr1s as well as c7 z's. So while they're definately harder to make go fast it's still possible and super fun/frustrating to figure out. They just take a while to figure out but with every car having an auto version these days most don't bother to figure out the manuals anymore. Also for roll racing or anything that doesn't require a launch manuals are still fine.

As much as I like manual cars I do see why some prefer autos in these high horsepower cars, 600hp+, but for regular GTs and Ss's sub 500 hp power levels manuals are still fine and can be very competitive with a proper driver.

I know the C6Zs have run 10s stock, I was even recently considering them again. I think they are still a little quicker at the track than a regular ZL1, but the data is a little confusing. Even Nurburgring times show the 2012 way faster than the 2006.
What is the C7Z spread from manual to auto at the strip? I haven't looked into it.

Originally Posted by BlaqWhole

In fact, I wonder if any of these Mustang guys have a rebuttal for the fact that the 500 dropped off in such a fantastic manner after just 1 lap. They argued to the teeth with me that Mustang don't suffer more than Camaros...yet the best Mustang available lost a full second by the third lap.

Anyway, factoring in that full second loss after 3 laps, I wonder how well the C8 Z51 would do against the 500 after a 5 lap run. I wonder if the C8 would catch up to and beat the C8 after 2 laps. That being the case, in the middle of Summer, light to light, does the 500 stand a chance against the ZL1s and C8s and C7 Zs??

Another example of design and development over tossing a blower and big brakes on a 4200 pound porker. GM built the ZL1 so that it will not overheat even when pushed to it's limit on a hot day. Frod slapped a blower and bigger coolers and bigger brakes on an already suffering chassis as a bandaid in hopes that it will run better even if for just the first lap and nothing more. Everything we have seen points to this.

BTW, the HC and RE have shitty tires and that is why they do soo horribly in the quarter mile bone stock. What is the 500's excuse? The 500 has some pretty damn good tires on it. So why is it putting out 700+ to the wheels but can't do better than 11.3 unless prepped track and ideal conditions? I'm betting even with DRs it won't do much better on an unprepped or not so good prepped strip.

I think Frod had their time to shine with the 500. But now that it is out and being tested and questions are popping up, it ain't soo hot anymore.

1 second after 3 laps is not much fall off at all and it is most likely from the tires and minimal heat soak at that point.
Also your DR comment is just not going to be accurate. All the GT500 needs to run it's 10s is traction, just like Hellcat's have needed since 2015.

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TreedYou

They are attention getting, I can see that sir.

My work is done.

Originally Posted by TreedYou

I agree with this, 5k is a nice little chunk for the same car (except for tires from what I've read). All this is why I will never buy any new car again when you can get such a steal in a few years if you don't always have to be the first of the first to get something it's really rewarding.

The only thing I can see that might explain it is that with the GT350, the extra $5K is actually part of the price of the car itself. So it increased by $5K. Whereas with the C8 and the ZL1, $5K on the C8 is the price of the Z51 package and $7500 is the price of the 1LE package. So you are buying a package. Frod basically increased the price of the car but then did a few things to it. Dodge did the same thing with the Hellcats in 2017. So maybe that explains why there isn't much that comes with the extra money. It is a horrible value for that car tho. I would have thought it wouldn't sell but apparently it still sells well enough for Frod to continue it.

BTW, does anyone have any idea if the 500 will be a continuing vehicle offered every year or just a 2 year thing?

[Chevmaro]

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...amaro-zl1-1le/


Camaro ZL1 1LE defeats Shelby Mustang GT 500 (6th gen Camaro undefeated in car magazine comparisons..)

[BlaqWhole]

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

All drag strips work this way. The timer doesn't start until your tire rolls out of the stage beam. Basically that guy didn't launch way better than you he just TREEDYOU (see what I did there ), the 60ft time tells you how good the launch is.

His RT was much better AND his 60 ft was about 1 tenth faster. However his MPH was 101 and mine was 111. I was 8 tenths faster to the line.

Originally Posted by TheRealJA105

1 second after 3 laps is not much fall off at all and it is most likely from the tires and minimal heat soak at that point.
Also your DR comment is just not going to be accurate. All the GT500 needs to run it's 10s is traction, just like Hellcat's have needed since 2015.

A full second is huge when you lose that much and your competition doesn't. As far as DRs, we will have to see. Like I said before, it isn't one thing that GT500s suffer from but multiple things. In ideal conditions it will beat a lot of cars out there. Remove one thing and it will be playing catch up.